@h3mmy I think I would define masturbation as:

physically manipulating one’s body in order to accomplish one or both of the following goals:

• experiencing sexual pleasure
• reaching orgasm

so for example touching an erogenous area that is arousing to touch, but doesn’t cause pleasure, isn’t masturbation. and listening to a hands-free orgasm hypnosis file, even if it causes a physical orgasm, doesn’t count as masturbation to me either

but I feel like I might be missing some nuances to this

@kasdeya
That is a perfectly valid perspective! I've heard that from quite a few folks, and it helped inform some of the options.

I actually used to use the definition you presented. And the reason was pretty simple. I wasn't having a good time with it. It was unpleasant and generally lacked any sort of climax. Even now, sometimes if I simply can't sleep, I can grab a vibe and go at it for a bit. Even though there's no climax or pleasure it seems to work for sleepy time at whatever ungodly hour it is. It's functional, like an unsatisfying sneeze. It felt disingenuous to say "I masturbated" because it definitely was nowhere near what people would interpret it as. And when others would tell me about how they experienced masturbation, it was a different world. So, I decided that it wasn't getting the message across and I needed to use some other word.

Now, that proves to be difficult. "Casting Sleep with a Wand", "Rapid System Maintenance", etc. No matter my phrasing, it would always be interpreted as masturbation for pleasure. Language is supposed to be for sending the right message. And with no effective language, I basically stopped talking about it, which I feel was counterproductive to one of my goals to normalize talking about normal things.

If I was going to have to have a speech every time I was talking about masturbating, I needed to be consistent with my words. So I did the dorky thing and went to the dictionary which basically just said "manual genital stimulation" and I just built from there.

Don't worry, I figured out how to masturbate for pleasure, mostly for academic reasons, and I felt strangely competitive. I'm a performer at heart. While it's still rare for me to even try, I can sometimes even hit the orgasm threshold. Usually once I do, the engine starts up and it can go for a while. It's just a stupid amount of work and I am not particularly motivated.

Now, the last example of listening to a recording and having a physical climax without any physical stimulation. I've done that with some books before. And sometimes it's not even physical. It's interesting to consider if these should count as masturbation. Mental Arousal and mental stimulation with the intent to "feed the desire" feels like it _should_ count. Is there physical stimulation involved in the imagined scenario? Does that even make a difference? So many good questions!

I feel like when there's intent to feed sexual urges, it should count as a form of self-gratification like solo sex, even if it doesn't fit the criteria for masturbation. Would you agree?

I feel like when you share your perspectives, it gives me a good catalyst for going into more detail about a topic. Thank you for that

---

If you want my first pass write-up about defining Masturbation, I did so here: https://lgbtqia.space/@h3mmy/115407651737161832 but I still need to go back and revise it for readability so you can comfortably circle back to it at a later point.

@h3mmy I wanted to say that I think I couldn't masturbate if I wasn't present in the experience. Like whats the point if I'm not paying attention to what I'm feeling, right?
My definition: Masturbation is self stimulation, in a sexual mindset or of erogenous zones, typically both and typically with physical arousal. The normal endpoint is orgasm, but its not required.

@MoonlitGallant
Completely understandable. You want to be in your body to feel the totality of (presumably) pleasant sensations. An integrative experience if you will.

I appreciate that you noted that part of the poll. How connected someone is to their body and how comfortable one feels in their own skin is an important factor in how they experience any sort of self-interaction.

Some folks are unable to feel comfortable in their body during this time for various reasons and that's also valid.

I find comments like these quite helpful when interpreting what people say. Thank you

@alice @h3mmy

I love the horse example, but it made me think of physically disabled folks who perhaps are unable to masturbate. If they have a partner who helps with that, would that be masturbation?

@An0n
My personal definition is that masturbation is physical stimulation of erogenous zones, and I consider this to be either on self or to others. No pleasure or orgasm required. So I would say yes. I know that there are folks who use a different definition that would reach for different words.
@alice

@alice
There are so many rabbit holes when talking about horses. Gotta be careful not to fall into the wrong one 🤭

Because I have many friends that are fond of horses, I can supply some extra info. Warning to everyone who doesn't want to read about this aspect of horse rearing.

The technical term used is "semen collection." They'll bring a mare around so the stallion can smell her. Typically the mare is kept in the stocks to prevent any injuries.

When the stud starts to drop dong, it's cleaned with water to help ensure the semen is clean.

When the stallion is ready, it's led to the mount, and at the right time (when fully hard and ready to go), they slide the sleeve over the penis. You can think of it as an artificial vagina, but it's effectively a fancy stroker.

The horse goes at it, and then the collecting tech runs some tests to check the quality of the sperm, etc. (e.g. counting swimmers under a microscope) They also add some water to a special sleeve to make sure semen doesn't dry out. This usually confuses people who try to watch a video.

Sometimes the collection process is less separated and they'll let the stallion mount the mare, but then intercept the penis with the special sleeve. Needless to say, the risk of injury is higher this way, but it does happen.

@h3mmy
Maybe I am remembering blending two movies together in my mind but:

There is this one comedy where there is vatican blond fighting monch in the 2000s where some anthoganist catholic goes ham licking the toes of a Maria statue while hands stay outside his clothes. (Maybe this blended together with a Spencer? film in my mind)

I would definetly describe that as a mastubatory act and used that as guide to answer some of these questions.

@drawnto
Fascinating!

This is actually how some pleasure in kink works. It's not even sexual a lot of the time. But your description here does sound quite passionate, and may fit the bill for erotic even if non-sexual.

Very hypothetical: would you consider erotically drinking a glass of water to be masturbating? Does your answer change if you envision this monk doing so vs someone else?

@h3mmy @alice

This is the ONLY AI i completely endorse

@MedeaVanamonde
It took me a minute to realize you meant "Artificial Insemination" and not "Artificial Intelligence"

What if intelligence could be inseminated? would that be a driver for eugenics, or a driving factor for me to become a collector?
@alice

@alice @h3mmy

I always train my subs to bring me off “manually” as I take 20-90 minutes to reach orgasm and most people don’t have my level of Tantric Stamina.

@MedeaVanamonde
Sounds like a team effort! You probably have good training documents too
@alice

@h3mmy interesting - so are sexual pleasure and orgasm things that you’re generally not interested in? if so I’m guessing that you don’t tend to encounter situations where you have an urge to feel either of those things

and omg yeah I know the feeling of having to essentially invent your own language to talk about certain things, because the existing language just doesn’t communicate what you’re trying to explain. I wonder if every neurodivergent person has to do that to some extent - although I imagine you have to deal with that a lot when it comes to words related to kink, intimacy, etc.

also, you’ve had a physical climax from reading books? that is fascinating omg. is that a skill that you deliberately learned? I would love to hear more

in the past I’ve tried to have a hands-free orgasm (not caring whether there was a physical component to it or if it was completely mental) through hypnosis but I’ve never been able to do that. I’d really like to experience that someday - especially as a mental-only orgasm

It’s interesting to consider if these should count as masturbation. Mental Arousal and mental stimulation with the intent to “feed the desire” feels like it should count. Is there physical stimulation involved in the imagined scenario? Does that even make a difference? So many good questions!

these are really interesting questions. I personally think that pleasure or orgasm (physical or mental orgasm) that comes entirely from the mind with no physical stimulation should have its own vocabulary. maybe a word that’s the mental equivalent of “masturbation” would be a good start. but I think that those are special enough to have their own word(s)

although of course there’s a grey area there: what about someone who is touching a part of themself physically that is not normally erogenous, but they’ve made it erogenous through their mental state? for example if someone was hypnotized to feel pleasure and have the potential to orgasm from touching their belly button, are they masturbating by touching it? I’m not sure how I would define that

I feel like when there’s intent to feed sexual urges, it should count as a form of self-gratification like solo sex, even if it doesn’t fit the criteria for masturbation. Would you agree?

definitely! I don’t think I’ve heard the term “solo sex” before but I think that’s a very good umbrella term that could encompass “masturbation” (by my definition) as well as [some word for psychological/non-physical masturbation]. but I think that they’re all roughly the same category of behavior: feeding sexual urges or gaining pleasure by engaging with sexual urges

I feel like when you share your perspectives, it gives me a good catalyst for going into more detail about a topic. Thank you for that

I’m really glad to hear that I’m able to help! I often don’t have the energy to think as deeply about these topics as you do but when I do I love being able to read your thoughts on them and talk with you about them - I always discover so much nuance that I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise, and learn a lot in general

If you want my first pass write-up about defining Masturbation, I did so here: https://lgbtqia.space/@h3mmy/115407651737161832 but I still need to go back and revise it for readability so you can comfortably circle back to it at a later point.

ooh, thank you for the link! I’m definitely going to add this to my “to read” list for when I have energy later

@kasdeya
Generally speaking, no. I am not particularly motivated to have sexual experiences. I'm also not especially disinterested. It's more like when you're trying to get all the trophies or badges in a video game and you want to be able to say you did all the things. Except that the game requires a bunch of setup, warm up and focus so interruptions basically trigger a reset.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "situations where you would feel the urge," Could you explain that?

Yes! I feel like language hunting is more prevalent among neurospicy folks, simply based on personal experience. You're right that there is more of it for topics that we don't talk about as openly across society. Sex, intimacy, kink, how we relate to ourselves and others mind-to-mind through this multi-layered meatspace.

I'm going to spread my replies across a couple of messages to help keep me organized.

@kasdeya

Yes, I have had physical climaxes from exclusively mental/emotional/abstract stimulation. In my case, books, and more specifically fiction. Oh, and there is at least one instance where it was listening to a few select orchestral pieces with a fancy audio setup and cozy over ear headphones. It was quite surprising.

When I'm mentally engaged in something immersive, that's skillfully composed, it's quite a vivid experience. There's a degree of depersonalization as I'm embodying the experience rather than myself. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like my mind floated into the pocket universe I created by getting into the story, and the story is now in my body as part of the endeavor.

I'm feeling all the feelings the characters are in the story. I'm taking in all the details, the smells, the textures, the sounds, and I am feeling those in my physical body. I'm attuned. This is the type of abstract space that can slide into a scenario that results in a physical climax. It doesn't even have to be something sexual in the story. Just overwhelming emotion of some variety can do it.

Even if there's no physical sensation, it is possible to hit some sort of mental release, which is the strangest type of giddiness, I swear. I can't tell you how common it is because my data points are limited and I am not exactly generating more data myself.

Physical version though, you might feel the arousal and climaxes differently. I don't know how to describe it properly. You know when you're driving fast over a hill and past the top, you get a moment or two of air time? That feeling of brief weightlessness, like you're taking off in a plane except without all the ear weirdness. That is stretched out over time, and there's a little hill and you feel a flushing everywhere head to toe, as blood is just moving to the skin. Face, chest, thighs often feel hot and steaming, etc.

Now, embodying feelings is something that you may need to work up to. I started it as part of a self-improvement practice. Trying to be more "in my body" instead of floating around all the time. And so I could better interpret what I was feeling. Like something simple is someone asking if I like cats. Yes, of course! Now where do I feel that in my body? which parts had a change of sensation? Even if I can't describe the sensation it's useful. As I keep doing it with easy stuff, I get better at doing it with more difficult questions and situations, which is good. I'm attuning to my body and what it's telling me. Really it's a way to tap into the brain circuits that process too fast to be coherent. It's helping to strengthen the translation layer between mind and body.

There are downsides. I cry with the characters, I feel the pain viscerally. The news is really difficult to read. I gasp audibly at certain things in thriller or horror stories including screen media. I'm more sensitive to my feelings so I feel everything more strongly (as if it wasn't strong enough already).

My dissociative states before this practice of embodiment was partially due to feeling everything too strongly and it becoming overwhelming. But now I have learned to parse them and accepted that my feelings will just be extra visible.

I suspect that is part of how one could deliberately try to have a physical experience with only mental stimulation.

I know that at least one instance was me reading in bed, my legs were crossed but in the doubled way (2 zigzags) which is just something I do sometimes. And having that probably contributed to the outcome. I can't say for sure which book I was reading at that specific time. It could have been one of the Sacchi Green short story collections, or something on scribblehub (e.g. see Trouble with Horns), or maybe it was Angels Before Man or Metal from Heaven. Regardless, it wasn't actually intentional. Steamy parts in those books are quite spaced out.

Since you like hypnosis, you might like Kite Rose Writes. Her stories are more explicitly horny, but I don't know if she's been writing much lately.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your experiments with hands-free experiences. I can check if anyone I know has done it on purpose and see what they say. Mine have all been unplanned.

Still working on writing out replies to remaining parts.

@kasdeya
I agree that it's quite interesting to think about. I agree that mental stimulation that eventually leads to physical stimulation is masturbation. My personal definition for masturbation is focused around physical stimulation without much regard for if there's pleasure or climax.

For mental stimulation and arousal that leads to physical arousal but not physical stimulation, I feel like that deserves its own term. It fits under the umbrella for solo sex and is a type of autoerotic behavior. It's a path to self-gratification, but should intent factor in? What do "wet dreams" count as?

If a belly button has become erogenous, then physical stimulation of the erogenous zone is something I would consider masturbation. I would also say it's a form of self-gratification. Like hitting a button to deliver dopamine. Except the button is on the body

@h3mmy @alice
that's interesting info but my first thought was the fact they call it semen collection doesn't stop it also being masturbation.
My definition is simply: Physical sexual stimulation without genital to genital contact.
Without any physical contact I'd use the term mental masturbation, but without that qualifyer, physical contact of erogenous zones with something is definitely implied.

@duckwhistle @alice Of course! You are right, the fact that they call it collection, doesn't stop it from being masturbation.

@h3mmy
Mhhh...

I could see drinking a glass of water be part of some dominance/submission dynamic. Both as dom (sub only gets to start drinking after dom drank) or sub (sub drinks because sub is told too). This wouldn't be masturbation to me due to the degree of twoness and more shared intimacy.

Cleopatra dissolving pearls in wine to have a fizzy alcoholic drink could be a masturbative act.

@h3mmy
Projecting that down to non fizzy water. If one drinks water very much with intent to worship ones own body with a lot of passion (imagine getting into some tantric headspace) I could see it classified as masturbatory but drinking water is really pushing it because of the mundanity of that act in my culture.

However even something as mundane as breathing (or not breathing) when done purposefully can become pleasureful to a mastubatory degree.

@drawnto So if done with an erotic charge, you might consider it masturbation. Is that right?

I define erotic as fueled by a strong desire, such that you feel like you are incomplete without fulfilling the need. Sexual context not required as it's about the need, the hunger, the passion.

@h3mmy No, masturbation is just about seeking sexual experiences to me, those experiences don't have to be pleasure. Other kids of sexual experiences include:

1. Exploration: seeing how something sexual might feel, especially if I've never done it before, is easier if it doesn't need to be targeting pleasure
2. Performance: something sexual done for a viewer/observer.
3. Exercise: stretching out a penis to prevent atrophy, for example.
4. Habit: just because that's the thing I do in a given time/context, without much intent involved.
5. Practice: there's something I want to know how to do comfortably with a partner, so I practice solo. Changing a gag reflex, for instance.
6. Functional: making sperm to freeze, for instance.

These are all sexual experiences that masturbation can target, to me.

@izzyzeis
That is quite helpful. You have a more expensive view of what a sexual experience is and I appreciate the examples.

So, it would be accurate to say that you would define masturbation to require sexual intent and it being directed at self? Pleasure not required.

@h3mmy

This is a really interesting topic. I looked at your original post as well before I wrote this.

Speaking from my own personal experience as a guy who has solo and partnered sex, and also including discussions I've had with others (including my wife). I a neurodivergent (ADHD yes, Autism, nah) black man, also cisgender and straight.

MSEA of self is masturbation. Is "Masturbation" were a country, "MSEA of self" would be its capital city, with a sprawling province named after it. There is ambiguity, to be sure, but MSEA of self is the standard by which I assess all other questions about masturbation

Masturbation is single-player. If I have a partner helping me, or if I am helping them, that's just sex, which is the co-op version of masturbation.

Masturbation can be foreplay though, like if my partner asks me to stroke myself cause it arouses her, I am masturbating for her, but for the purposes of imminent sex. It's masturbation as foreplay.

Personally? MA is required for masturbation, because the goal of masturbation is a climax. I can't stroke it while looking at a scenic background or fears about taxes. I need some sort of arousing thought to physically complete the action. My thoughts or masturbation aids don't need to be of things I want to do or achieve in real life, either; fantasy horny and IRL horny are two different lists, but. I don't need a visual aid; I can close my eyes and dream of the thickest, curviest nerdy gal imaginable, but I can't physically complete the action thinking of something that elicits no arousal.

The physical and mental release of masturbation is my goal. Sometimes it's in lieu of other activities (i.e. I'm traveling for work), sometimes it's to manual generate the dopamine I need to get out of bed, sometimes it's to relax my body enough to sleep. But that orgasm is the goal I'm chasing each time.

If I get hard from a visual or mental or even physical stimulation, but don't go MSEA myself, then I have not masturbated.

I come from a religious background and have had many, many conversations about what is or isn't masturbation for the purpose of defining what is and isn't morally acceptable. I've since shed the stigma. Masturbation isn't weird/wrong/gross.

@NaClKnight I really appreciate how you clarified a lot of the fuzzy terms to describe your perspective. It makes it very clear.

I like how you consider co-op masturbation to be an overlapping zone with sex.

It sounds like you have what I call a snugly coupled body and mind. Masturbation is an integrative experience and for you requires both physical and mental stimulation. Arousal (both physical and mental) is also required if your goal of climax is to be achieved. Is that correct so far?

Physical climax can't happen if you aren't mentally aroused. This seems to be a point where people diverge a lot and I think it's interesting. I know some people that can still climax while stressed about taxes, and they've reported it feels weird and not really comfortable and they will call it a climax but are reluctant to call it an orgasm.

> ...manually generate the dopamine
This is more of a silly aside, but if you had to pick a title for this niche, what would you call it?
Some examples: Dopamine Farmer, Dopamine Engineer, The Dopaminer, Demigod of Dopamine Harvest

I definitely agree that physical arousal without manual stimulation of erogenous zones doesn't quite count as masturbation.

I appreciate you sharing all of this information. I'm glad that you've been able to shed the stigma. It surprises many people, but I was very religious as a youngling. I can relate to it being a difficult journey to renormalize normal phenomena

@h3mmy

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “situations where you would feel the urge,” Could you explain that?

oop! yeah that was bad wording on my part. it was a really roundabout and confusing way of saying “you don’t often (or maybe never) feel urges that could be described as sexual”

It’s more like when you’re trying to get all the trophies or badges in a video game and you want to be able to say you did all the things.

ooh interesting. I think I’m like that with certain experiences too. for example I’m still pretty interested in the concept of kink without a sexual component, after talking about it with you. and I’m also like that with different types of food lol, and just weird experiences - like I want to experiment with lucid dreams at some point and a part of me is curious about what ego death is like

Except that the game requires a bunch of setup, warm up and focus so interruptions basically trigger a reset.

oof, I’m guessing you’re talking about {masturbation that results in an orgasm} here? I was curious about that because it sounded like you felt pleasure from orgasm and even that it lasted a long time, so I wondered why you wouldn’t want to experience that more simply because it felt good. but if it takes that much effort (and also time) to get there then no wonder you wouldn’t want to

like I could cook a very high-effort and delicious meal for myself but that would take a lot of effort that I don’t want to put into my life all the time. and to be honest I don’t know if I’d ever want to do that because the enjoyment:effort ratio just isn’t high enough

feel free to ignore this question - it is very personal lol - but did the process of approaching orgasm feel good? did the orgasm feel good? I’m pretty curious. it sounds like manual genital stimulation doesn’t usually result in pleasure for you at least

actually, here’s another question: how did you learn the behavior of using manual genital stimulation to help you sleep? that’s especially interesting to me because those two things aren’t connected at all in my mind. if I’m distractingly horny then I might masturbate until I orgasm in order to make those feelings go away so that I can sleep, but it sounds like you don’t actually reach orgasm when doing that. do you think it might be a grounding technique, and the sensations that you’re feeling help you calm down or control your focus?

@h3mmy okay I’m more than a little jealous of how you experience art lol. I don’t think that I would want to orgasm from nonsexual art but the level of immersion that you have in those things is incredible. for context I can barely imagine visual things: I can get a vague outline and a vague impression of color and that’s it. and even that doesn’t last very long - it’s often just fleeting glimpses

I know that I keep bringing up hypnosis, and that’s mostly because it was my special interest for a while and it’s also a kink that I have. but I’m curious if you’ve ever tried recreational hypnosis. since you have such a vivid imagination I feel like you might really enjoy it, or to be honest you might just be disappointed by it because it doesn’t give you any experiences that you don’t have through engaging with art instead

Physical version though, you might feel the arousal and climaxes differently. I don’t know how to describe it properly. You know when you’re driving fast over a hill and past the top, you get a moment or two of air time? That feeling of brief weightlessness, like you’re taking off in a plane except without all the ear weirdness. That is stretched out over time, and there’s a little hill and you feel a flushing everywhere head to toe, as blood is just moving to the skin. Face, chest, thighs often feel hot and steaming, etc.

I know exactly the sensation that you’re talking about - this was a fantastic description. I used to have orgasms like that when I was on HRT (sadly I had to stop for Bad Reasons) and they were incredible. probably my favorite bodily sensation. I actually felt it in waves though, that traveled quickly over my body if that makes sense

I definitely struggle a lot with metacognition - especially when it comes to emotional awareness. that’s something that I’m trying to work on because sometimes I am extremely stressed out and the reason that I notice it is because I suddenly scream really loudly lol. but even then it doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me. I definitely want to practice more with feeling bodily sensations that correspond to emotions like that

I suspect that is part of how one could deliberately try to have a physical experience with only mental stimulation.

interesting - so I think what you’re saying is: if I can feel and understand {the feelings that I want to create} deeply enough, then that’s the first step to creating them mentally? especially when it comes to things like, the physical sensations of pleasure (genitals being stimulated or etc.) vs. the more abstract pure pleasure that underlies that, if that makes sense

Since you like hypnosis, you might like Kite Rose Writes. Her stories are more explicitly horny, but I don’t know if she’s been writing much lately.

ooh interesting! I’ll give her stories a look then

@h3mmy

What do “wet dreams” count as?

that’s an interesting question! that’s definitely not masturbation by my definition and I don’t think that I would even call it autoerotic behavior because it isn’t really a behavior - it’s something that happens to someone rather than a behavior that they have

I think I would put that in a category of its own, because intent is important to me in defining things like solo sex, autoerotic behavior, or masturbation. even if someone moves in their sleep in a way that stimulates their genitals physically, that still doesn’t fit into any of those categories to me because there’s no conscious intent behind it

@kasdeya

> oop! yeah that was bad wording on my part. it was a really roundabout and confusing way of saying “you don’t often (or maybe never) feel urges that could be described as sexual”

This is accurate then. Thanks for clarifying!

> ooh interesting. I think I’m like that with certain experiences too. for example I’m still pretty interested in the concept of kink without a sexual component, after talking about it with you. and I’m also like that with different types of food lol, and just weird experiences - like I want to experiment with lucid dreams at some point and a part of me is curious about what ego death is like

Kink without a sexual component is such a norm for me, I'm still sometimes a little startled when people tell me that it's always sexual. Platonic and sensual intimacy is really nice. Folks are missing out imo.

I definitely hear you on the sensory seeking sort of vibes and wanting to experience lots of things. I've toyed with lucid dreaming but not super actively. I just journal my dreams when I have time to and if I suspect I'm in a dream, I'll do some reality checks and go from there. Those tend to be the most vivid even when I'm immediately ejected from the dream.

Ego death is not a singular experience and there is a significant variety of it. Not all of them are pleasant, but some are worthwhile for those interested.

> oof, I’m guessing you’re talking about {masturbation that results in an orgasm} here? I was curious about that because it sounded like you felt pleasure from orgasm and even that it lasted a long time, so I wondered why you wouldn’t want to experience that more simply because it felt good. but if it takes that much effort (and also time) to get there then no wonder you wouldn’t want to

Actually, masturbation regardless of orgasm. If I'm intentionally trying to do something it's an exploratory session. However, the barriers are many and the motivation is mostly non-existent. I lacked the motivation for basically my life so it's not a new phenomenon.

I've had pleasurable sessions, and orgasms are nice. I've also had pretty uncomfortable sessions and those have decreased in frequency over the years as I figured out what things weren't working. Because attempts are very infrequent, it's a rather slow process collecting data and adjusting things.

If you think of the dual control model from "Come As You Are" (Emily Nagoski), I have a resistant accelerator (arousal is slow if not impossible) and very sensitive brakes (very easy to derail) but I also don't really have an engine until I manifest one.

The effort to reward ratio is less the issue. It is simply too many spoons out of my day and I have other stuff to do that is higher priority (like cooking something high effort). Could I bring the "cost" down with more experimentation and practice? Probably, and it's in my pile of to-dos that can collect dust for years so it might happen someday.

> feel free to ignore this question - it is very personal lol - but did the process of approaching orgasm feel good? did the orgasm feel good? I’m pretty curious. it sounds like manual genital stimulation doesn’t usually result in pleasure for you at least

I'm very open to discussing a lot of things folks might consider personal so please feel free. To answer, it does not always feel good. Since a few years ago, it's reliably better when conditions are right, and I am intentionally exploring of my own accord. In those instances, yes the orgasm was good. I'm not quiet reliably but I can usually direct sounds into a pillow.

Manual stimulation by itself is more likely to be painful and uncomfortable so, yes you are correct.

> actually, here’s another question: how did you learn the behavior of using manual genital stimulation to help you sleep? that’s especially interesting to me because those two things aren’t connected at all in my mind. if I’m distractingly horny then I might masturbate until I orgasm in order to make those feelings go away so that I can sleep, but it sounds like you don’t actually reach orgasm when doing that. do you think it might be a grounding technique, and the sensations that you’re feeling help you calm down or control your focus?

I feel like I should emphasize that it doesn't always help with sleep. And there's almost never any climax in these instances. When there is, it's more like a sneeze and not particularly fun either. But sometimes it does help with sleep. I had some response somewhere where I mused that it might just be "taking a break" from trying to sleep and then going back to trying to sleep afterwards then works.

Kind of like when a zipper is stuck and you need to unzip again to re-zip properly. I suppose it's a type of grounding technique to refocus, yes.

@kasdeya
> okay I’m more than a little jealous of how you experience art lol. I don’t think that I would want to orgasm from nonsexual art but the level of immersion that you have in those things is incredible. for context I can barely imagine visual things: I can get a vague outline and a vague impression of color and that’s it. and even that doesn’t last very long - it’s often just fleeting glimpses

You might simply be more lexical. My immersion stems from a spatial perspective, but one can still focus through other senses without needing to be able to have any visual simulation. It takes practice regardless, and I've been reading deeply engrossing books since I was old enough to read. It was a way for me to escape my surroundings and I was motivated to make it as vivid as possible.

> I know that I keep bringing up hypnosis, and that’s mostly because it was my special interest for a while and it’s also a kink that I have. but I’m curious if you’ve ever tried recreational hypnosis. since you have such a vivid imagination I feel like you might really enjoy it, or to be honest you might just be disappointed by it because it doesn’t give you any experiences that you don’t have through engaging with art instead

I remember being interested in hypnosis for a bit at some point as a teen. I remember being frustrated at the lack of proper theory and explanation at the time. I revisited it at some point but I never got very into it. I've seen some kink scenes and those looked like they could be fun. Art takes many forms, and I'm not one that will avoid trying anything new.

I'm certainly willing to give it a go as a hypnosis bottom, but the thought of finding a skilled hypnosis top that can handle my playful critiques is daunting. I'm a switch but the kink economy puts me in a scene top role most of the time and I think I might intimidate folks too much.

@Trey how much do you know about hypnosis? You could hypnotize me to let you zap me at more than the lowest setting on your electro kit.

@kasdeya

> I know exactly the sensation that you’re talking about - this was a fantastic description. I used to have orgasms like that when I was on HRT (sadly I had to stop for Bad Reasons) and they were incredible. probably my favorite bodily sensation. I actually felt it in waves though, that traveled quickly over my body if that makes sense

Waves is a good description. Hills and waves. I can visualize some arbitrary cell surfing the waves of sensation. Getting up steeper hills requires momentum from a previous hill and there's airtime at the top of each proportional to the slope and distance.

I'm sorry you had to stop HRT. I hope you can restart/resume it at some point. It does make it easier to stay in one's body more often.

> I definitely struggle a lot with metacognition - especially when it comes to emotional awareness. that’s something that I’m trying to work on because sometimes I am extremely stressed out and the reason that I notice it is because I suddenly scream really loudly lol. but even then it doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me. I definitely want to practice more with feeling bodily sensations that correspond to emotions like that

Oh, that sounds rough. I definitely understand the "dissociate when stressed" feeling. It's not fun. It's difficult to be in one's body when it's not comfortable to do so. The mindfulness exercises really do help. Starting with super simple things and turning it into a habit is the key. Once it is a habit it becomes much easier.

> interesting - so I think what you’re saying is: if I can feel and understand {the feelings that I want to create} deeply enough, then that’s the first step to creating them mentally? especially when it comes to things like, the physical sensations of pleasure (genitals being stimulated or etc.) vs. the more abstract pure pleasure that underlies that, if that makes sense

Yes, that is certainly part of what I'm saying. It's increasing the abstract resolution. What do I mean by that? It's like when create a procedure, like making tea. You heat up water, measure out tea, steep it for a time, and remove the tea. I can expand on every step until it's broken down into a long list of micro tasks. Now when I say "make some tea" it's all those micro tasks that you think of. "Make some tea" is an abstraction of the detailed process. The abstract concept has a higher resolution than the 5 step procedure. The abstract concept of underlying pleasure can be mapped to all the component sensations and groups of those, and when you can simulate the pieces, you can then orchestrate them together into an aria if you like (in theory)

@h3mmy @Trey

[…] I’ve been reading deeply engrossing books since I was old enough to read. It was a way for me to escape my surroundings and I was motivated to make it as vivid as possible.

that makes sense! I definitely have similar escapist tendencies but I have a complex (mostly negative) relationship with storytelling, so I haven’t had that kind of practice. I’m more used to immersing myself in video game environments instead

I remember being interested in hypnosis for a bit at some point as a teen. I remember being frustrated at the lack of proper theory and explanation at the time.

omg yeah. I don’t think that anyone really knows how it works. there are always people trying to form cults of personality around their specific idea of how hypnosis works (Milton Erickson is a prominent example. also look at “neuro-linguistic programming” for another flavor of hypnosis-themed quackery) and it’s so difficult to study hypnosis that it’s hard to prove them wrong

I’ve actually heard two different models about how hypnosis works that do kinda make sense to me though. one is that it’s essentially just the placebo effect, and that “trance” is not a special state at all. it’s only the subject’s expectations and beliefs that make it special

the other is that hypnosis involves selectively turning off metacognition, so that thoughts can exist in your mind that you aren’t aware of, if that makes sense

I’m certainly willing to give it a go as a hypnosis bottom, but the thought of finding a skilled hypnosis top that can handle my playful critiques is daunting.

hehehe that definitely makes sense. I used to be pretty good at hypnosis but I think something like that would throw me off pretty much immediately

I’m a switch but the kink economy puts me in a scene top role most of the time and I think I might intimidate folks too much

hm, is it true that there are more bottoms than tops overall? I’ve heard that before but mostly just in relation to straight people, so I assumed things would probably be different when it came to queer people of various kinds

also omg is Trey interested in hypnosis too? also electro-stimulation is another thing that I’ve always wanted to experience. does it feel like when you rub your feet on the carpet and touch something metal? or is it a different sensation?

@h3mmy Thanks! I wrote an essay a year ago about the journey i did you determine that i am very cis and sufficiently het to identify with both terms, so i am trying not to come off as insensitive discussing these topics.

Just wanted to clarify something.

In my relationship, my wife has a stronger correlation between "physical arousal" and "wants sex." She doesn't have a habit of "i don't feel good, so i masturbated to relax my body and get a quick rush of dopamine to complete the next task."

I developed the latter during college as a very early/primitive way to address what i later discovered was ADHD. It's a way to jump start my brain when i have trouble getting out of bed and starting the day. In that case, i am jerking it because i want the physical effects of the orgasm, not as a consolation prize because i wasnt partnered sex but can't have it.

The other rules apply though:
The goal is an orgasm.
I have to think about something (i find) sexy to get and maintain that erection (i must actively maintain that focus on a sexy thought or image)
I have to physically stimulate myself to achieve an orgasm

My wife, if still in bed, may (unprompted usually) provide some additional physical stimulation (kissing my neck or chest or abs) to help me achieve that orgasm. This is still a kind of sexual intimacy and a kind of sex, and the closest i get to the ambiguity of "sex" vs "masturbation" because it is typically not masturbation as foreplay, but masturbation because i want physical orgasm benefits.

She has stated that she finds helping me gratifying but not arousing. She enjoys doing it, but helping jump start my battery doesn't get her wet.

If she's aroused from other sources and i'm still in bed, she's more likely to want or give oral in that configuration, rather than just manual stimulation. That activity is clearly and explicitly "sex" rather than masturbation.

Forgive the extended aside.

"Dopaminer" or "Spark Generator" or "Jumpstarter" feel silly but appropriate.

"snugly coupled body and mind" is accurate, by your definition

Thanks again!

@NaClKnight
Thank you for the extended aside. It's quite informative and I appreciate the details you've included.

@kasdeya
This is definitely where things get fuzzy. A lot of people seem to include intent as part of masturbation, and they seem to also consider it equivalent to solo sex.

It becomes tricky because it's difficult to ascribe intent. Is there intent if there is a degree of lucidity in the dream? Sometimes a dream involves active choices, even if it's made by some part of the consciousness that is not normally trusted with decisions.

What qualifies as conscious intent, and is subconscious intent unimportant?

#CW Intox talk

What if the person is intoxicated to the point of being unaware of what they are doing. Are they masturbating? Or if they're sleepwalking and then physically stimulating themselves? What if they're having a psychotic break? An outside observer may not be able to tell the difference between these scenarios and intentional masturbation. If they report someone for standing on their front lawn and masturbating, would that be inaccurate because there's a lack of intent?

There are other disturbing scenarios but I don't think it's necessary to go into them. I mainly wanted to highlight that interpreting intent can be tricky.

I would call a scenario where a tricky definition depends on another tricky definition to be a "high cardinality context-dependent definition" (not important, tangent)

End #CW intox talk

My personal definition makes a distinction and does not factor intent into the definition of masturbation. Mine is simply "manual stimulation of erogenous zones" . So for this definition, a wet dream would only count as masturbation if there is some physical stimulation involved (like moving in sleep or something).

It has some interesting consequences, and also makes it distinct from solo sex, but with significant overlap. Notably, a wet dream might not necessarily count as solo sex either depending on the intent. I do ascribe intent in the case of defining solo sex, but because we're defining sex as whatever all parties agree fits the definition, I would be the one that understands my own intent (at least I would hope so) and it makes it a more normal cardinality context-dependent definition.

@kasdeya
My condolences. Storytelling is quite an art form and it's unfortunate that has been a negative experience for you. Video games do have a storytelling element and maybe that can help slowly repair that for you? I do consider many plot driven games to be quite equivalent to book stories, but it does change how I relate to the characters involved a bit.

I had quite the polycule going in my BG3 runs

> omg yeah. I don’t think that anyone really knows how it works. there are always people trying to form cults of personality around their specific idea of how hypnosis works (Milton Erickson is a prominent example. also look at “neuro-linguistic programming” for another flavor of hypnosis-themed quackery) and it’s so difficult to study hypnosis that it’s hard to prove them wrong
>
> I’ve actually heard two different models about how hypnosis works that do kinda make sense to me though. one is that it’s essentially just the placebo effect, and that “trance” is not a special state at all. it’s only the subject’s expectations and beliefs that make it special
>
> the other is that hypnosis involves selectively turning off metacognition, so that thoughts can exist in your mind that you aren’t aware of, if that makes sense

I've actually done some studying at some point of the different "schools of thought" such as the Milton Erickson model and its potential applications. It was part of my sociology interest topics, and was quite useful as it kept coming up as I dove into social influence mechanics and how they are used with high cohesion groups (cults) with applications in broad scale societies (colonialism and imperialism). It eventually culminated in case studies of "invisible populations" (native Hawaiians, native Alaskan, and native Americans) with a focus on strategies to steer society towards some sort of reparation mindset. I had dropped out by the time the course track would have merged into the linguistic development track and shifted into poli-sci but with computational math.

Anyway, long tangent to say that you are right about it being difficult to ethically study hypnosis, and the subjects belief structures play a huge part in any sort of "suggestibility." 😅

I already have thoughts in my mind that I'm unaware of. I don't think just in words (textures and colors play a significant role), so that would add a challenge to anyone who wanted to hypnotize me under the model that suspends meta-cognition. Not necessarily a big challenge. They just need to convince my subconscious brain that it was a responsible version of me that originated the thought rather than one of the irresponsible or hedonistic versions of me.

> hm, is it true that there are more bottoms than tops overall? I’ve heard that before but mostly just in relation to straight people, so I assumed things would probably be different when it came to queer people of various kinds

You're right that things are much different with queer folx. It's also different depending on localities. And bottoms/tops won't necessarily correspond to submissives and dominants. They are different dynamics altogether. I've much more practice as a soft domme and scene top. And some practice as a softly dominant scene bottom.

I have actually interacted with some domme and top leaning switches that have expressed interest but there's often some difficulty getting aligned on boundaries around sexual touch and the fact that I don't actually want those parts (I was born a tease or something which makes me an exceptionally frustrating brat)

> also omg is Trey interested in hypnosis too? also electro-stimulation is another thing that I’ve always wanted to experience. does it feel like when you rub your feet on the carpet and touch something metal? or is it a different sensation?

Yup! I'll let @Trey answer those questions. She was a bit tied up over the weekend and wasn't able to respond so far.

@h3mmy

My condolences. Storytelling is quite an art form and it’s unfortunate that has been a negative experience for you.

aw, thank you! I’m just very easily hurt by witnessing things like injustice or cruelty, fictional or not, and storytelling is almost never calibrated with my emotional sensitivity in mind - so I end up much more hurt than what I think was intended

for the most part I avoid storytelling right now - even in video games. although sometimes I’m able to enjoy a video game with a story because the story isn’t told in a way that affects my emotions very strongly. for example I’ve been really enjoying Alien: Rogue Incursion in part because the story isn’t able to upset or disturb me in the ways that it’s trying to (sadly some of the audio logs still managed to hurt me though)

but yeah I don’t know what I need in order to be less hurt by ficitonal injustice or cruelty. I wish I did

I had quite the polycule going in my BG3 runs

aww hehehe omg that sounds really nice. I’ve always wanted to be able to play a game with romanceable characters like that

I’ve actually done some studying at some point of the different “schools of thought” such as the Milton Erickson model and its potential applications. It was part of my sociology interest topics, and was quite useful as it kept coming up as I dove into social influence mechanics and how they are used with high cohesion groups (cults) with applications in broad scale societies (colonialism and imperialism)

woahh interesting. I had no idea that you studied sociology, let alone that you dove so deep into hypnosis, or even how applicable that kind of thing is for understanding cults - though that last part does make sense

Anyway, long tangent to say that you are right about it being difficult to ethically study hypnosis, and the subjects belief structures play a huge part in any sort of “suggestibility.” 😅

omg wait what do you mean by “ethically”? are there easier ways to study it that are unethical instead? I always thought that it was just inherently difficult to study because there were way too many confounding variables - because what you’d have to control for are {social dynamics between the hypnotist and the subject} and the subject’s beliefs about hypnosis (and probably other messy social/psychological things too) which sounds basically impossible

You’re right that things are much different with queer folx. It’s also different depending on localities. And bottoms/tops won’t necessarily correspond to submissives and dominants. They are different dynamics altogether. I’ve much more practice as a soft domme and scene top. And some practice as a softly dominant scene bottom.

hm that’s a distinction that I have to admit I’m kind of fuzzy on. like I here are how I think those words are defined:

• top: the one who performs actions in the scene (the one who ties the ropes, uses the impact play toy, etc.)
• bottom: the one who receives the actions in the scene
• dom/domme: the one who asserts control in the context of the scene
• sub: the one who relinquishes control in the context of the scene

but by these definitions, for example it makes sense to me that the top in a rope-play scene would also always be the dom because they’re restraining the bottom, and therefor taking control for themself (by making the bottom physically helpless). so I feel like there’s something I’m missing

I have actually interacted with some domme and top leaning switches that have expressed interest but there’s often some difficulty getting aligned on boundaries around sexual touch and the fact that I don’t actually want those parts (I was born a tease or something which makes me an exceptionally frustrating brat)

hehehe omgg - very fair lol. so it sounds like it’s difficult for you in general to find play partners who aren’t interested in doing completely non-sexual scenes? (and scenes with any kind of sexual component would be a hard limit for you)

Yup! I’ll let @Trey answer those questions. She was a bit tied up over the weekend and wasn’t able to respond so far.

oh - right! sorry I should have asked her instead. I guess I was just shy to talk to a new person hehe. but I would love to hear about it, Trey!

@kasdeya

@h3mmy

> I guess I was just shy to talk to a new person hehe

Hiii
Im also shy (and new here) so, we can be shy together!
I was indeed a bit tied up this weekend :) ...and then work continued to tie me up in a much less enjoyable way.

> @Trey how much do you know about hypnosis? You could hypnotize me to let you zap me at more than the lowest setting on your electro kit.

> also omg is Trey interested in hypnosis too?

I know very little about hypnosis :c
Ive seen one scene/workshop on it but that's about it.
Im interested but I struggle with the idea of it logistically? I think I understand the basics looking in on it but it just doesn't click in my head? Its something I would try bottoming but think I would struggle to get in the headspace for. And im not sure I would be good topping for it either, sadly. Much better working with tangible things with my hands than the invisible strings in people's minds.
...we can continue talking about the electro though... ><

> also electro-stimulation is another thing that I’ve always wanted to experience. does it feel like when you rub your feet on the carpet and touch something metal? or is it a different sensation?

I tried it and was instantly sold hehe.. its one of the few kinks i have that can be pain related to bottom for, or at least one's I've tried or have any interest in.
There are different attachments and tools that all feel different.
It can, to me, range from a tickle (mushroom electrode) to a thousand sharp pins all rapidly poking (flogger like thing that has many small points of contact, constantly moving around on the body)
The static sensation you mention is very possible, there's a tool that charges your body so that touching another person shocks wherever you touch. This is a double sided sword, while topping with this youll feel the electricity as it jumps from you. So the top has to be a fan of the sensation as well, especially in the hands as thats a common place for it to travel through. Poking someone does basically what you said. Dragging a finger along a limb continues it. Equipping metal finger tips? The spark condenses further, and the dragging of the metal feels... deeper (and the top gets even more of a zap in their fingertips) Go in for a kiss? Lips are going to spark.
The number of places and how hard you touch disperses the feeling differently. Ive bitten people while charged and felt it go through my teeth (interesting).

It's fun giving demos to people to show how it feels :)

> sounds like it’s difficult for you in general to find play partners who aren’t interested in doing completely non-sexual scenes?

The question wasn't directed at me but I haven't had any issues with this. A large majority of scenes im in are non-sexual, I can't actually remember the last one I did that *was* sexual. It might just be the scenes/people/places I engage with though, im fairly confident @h3mmy has a wider web cast. Im unfortunately a bit quiet in the scene currently due to distance and time :c

> I was born a tease or something which makes me an exceptionally frustrating brat

A wonderful tease and a brat, yes
Exceptionally frustrating, no ;p

@kasdeya

> for the most part I avoid storytelling right now - even in video games. although sometimes I’m able to enjoy a video game with a story because the story isn’t told in a way that affects my emotions very strongly. for example I’ve been really enjoying Alien: Rogue Incursion in part because the story isn’t able to upset or disturb me in the ways that it’s trying to (sadly some of the audio logs still managed to hurt me though)

That is understandable. Having an extra pronounced sense of justice and empathy for the victims of cruelty is difficult to reconcile with stories where that happens. I can try poking around for titles where it's less of an issue just in case?

With video games, I don't get as much time to play as I used to, but @xYourEmoGFx might have some targeted suggestions for story games that are sensitive to injustice and cruelty (maybe?)

> but yeah I don’t know what I need in order to be less hurt by ficitonal injustice or cruelty. I wish I did

That's one of those things that really only you can answer. Folks can offer up suggestions but I know testing suggestions also requires spoons and has inherent risk, and only you can decide when that is acceptable. I hope that over time it's something that becomes less of a barrier 🫶🏽

> omg wait what do you mean by “ethically”? are there easier ways to study it that are unethical instead? I always thought that it was just inherently difficult to study because there were way too many confounding variables - because what you’d have to control for are {social dynamics between the hypnotist and the subject} and the subject’s beliefs about hypnosis (and probably other messy social/psychological things too) which sounds basically impossible

😅 Yes, technically.

Informed consent is very important. With some types hypnosis, there is going to often be a layer of deception involved, those cannot be studied in an ethical way.

If hypnosis is used for treatment, it is considered unethical to deprive the control group of the treatment of they don't have access to equivalent options.

Limiting harm is an ethical perogative, and that is not feasible with large study groups in a model of hypnosis that might work. Even a success case has an elevated risk of harm and it may not be ethical to proceed in that fashion.

As you rightly mentioned, there are plenty of confounding factors. However, confounding factors have historically not prevented anyone from studying anything. It's the funding. It is difficult to design an ethical and also useful study with meaningful results. The experts most likely to succeed are not likely going to want to be involved. The folks that are most eager to, may not be great choices for leading a study.

To get funding to study something you need to have a solid pitch for utility and how it will benefit society. Trying to get money that might otherwise go to researching something else with different utility means academic priorities are also a factor at play.

There are other considerations, and by no means are my reasons exhaustive, or perfect.

As an aside, the most useful studies on influencing human behavior will be in papers that don't mention hypnosis at all.

PS: I'm responding to the rest too. Just splitting my responses

@Trey

@kasdeya

> ...but by these definitions, for example it makes sense to me that the top in a rope-play scene would also always be the dom because they’re restraining the bottom, and therefor taking control for themself (by making the bottom physically helpless). so I feel like there’s something I’m missing

You are partially correct! Yes, the top has some power by restraining the bottom in a bondage scene. The control and direction can come from either party. In most cases the bottoms preferences drive the scene, at least in my scenes. But this is via informing my decisions. If the rope bottom is directing the top on tying them as a service, the bottom is a bit more dominant over the scene (famously known as a power bottom in some cases) and the top is more of a service top.

Different combinations of power, control, direction, preference, and orchestration help make kink play such a diverse charcuterie board of joy.

If I was a bit more sadistic, I would be making my rope bottoms suffer through an uncomfortable or painful (but safe) tie, as a way to demonstrate their dedication. And they would like it. That would be a scenario where I am a domme and also a top.

> hehehe omgg - very fair lol. so it sounds like it’s difficult for you in general to find play partners who aren’t interested in doing completely non-sexual scenes? (and scenes with any kind of sexual component would be a hard limit for you)

Well, it depends by what you mean by difficult. I've been fortunate to find plenty of folks that are okay with totally non-sexual kink. During this process, I've had to decline a surprising amount of propositions from folks that couldn't work with that boundary. But that's kind of the point of the filtering.

I'm not inherently opposed to incorporating sexual components in scenes at some point, but there is a problem there. Namely that if I say that during initial interactions, I end up with some people that hear that as a challenge or wedge and then implicitly develop an expectation. It's not an expectation I agreed to, and I don't want to create one accidentally so I'm more comfortable leaving it out completely.

Platonic affection is safe and meets my needs from my interactions.

@h3mmy @xYourEmoGFx @Trey

That is understandable. Having an extra pronounced sense of justice and empathy for the victims of cruelty is difficult to reconcile with stories where that happens. I can try poking around for titles where it’s less of an issue just in case?

With video games, I don’t get as much time to play as I used to, but

@xYourEmoGFx might have some targeted suggestions for story games that are sensitive to injustice and cruelty (maybe?)

omg thank you for the offers! to be honest, there is probably a very small intersection between stories that I would be interested in, and stories that I wouldn’t find painful in that way. but if either of you want to give me suggestions then I could try them! it might be an interesting experiment

the things that specifically upset me are injustice, oppression, and abusive power dynamics. there’s more nuance to this but I’m not going to make y’all read the whole like 20-paragraph essay I wrote on it lol

but yeah I don’t know what I need in order to be less hurt by ficitonal injustice or cruelty. I wish I did

That’s one of those things that really only you can answer. Folks can offer up suggestions but I know testing suggestions also requires spoons and has inherent risk, and only you can decide when that is acceptable. I hope that over time it’s something that becomes less of a barrier 🫶🏽

thank you 💙 I hope so too. I guess I just need to experiment and figure out what I need. I definitely think part of it, though, will be feeling like I’m empowered to address the injustice in my own life and in my friends’ lives. once I’ve got that I think fictional injustice will bother me a lot less

Informed consent is very important. With some types hypnosis, there is going to often be a layer of deception involved, those cannot be studied in an ethical way.

oof yeah that definitely makes sense. there’s definitely a lot of “saying things that aren’t true so that they become true” in hypnosis - especially during the pre-talk. I think that that can be done in a way that isn’t actually deceptive, but more like going through the motions of deception, but that in itself is can be very messy and I’m still trying to figure out where I stand on the deceptive aspects of hypnosis

If hypnosis is used for treatment, it is considered unethical to deprive the control group of the treatment of they don’t have access to equivalent options.

ohh wow, interesting. in that case, how is it possible to test an experimental cure for a disease that hasn’t been cured yet? or I guess in that case, your “control group” would be the publicly-available statistics on how the disease usually progresses?

Limiting harm is an ethical perogative, and that is not feasible with large study groups in a model of hypnosis that might work. Even a success case has an elevated risk of harm and it may not be ethical to proceed in that fashion.

hm that’s interesting too. what kind of harm are you talking about? I think I might roughly know what you mean but I’m not 100% sure, since the therapeutic uses for hypnosis aren’t something that I know much about at all

As an aside, the most useful studies on influencing human behavior will be in papers that don’t mention hypnosis at all.

ohh, interesting. that definitely makes sense. has the placebo effect been studied much? because I think that that is more-or-less what hypnosis is. also when you say “human behavior” I assume you’re talking about both overt and covert behavior right? (as in, it also includes thoughts, emotions, etc.)