Some context for this #Poll
I'm gray-ace, aro, and am active in my local #kink scene. I regularly have people for which this does not compute because they see kink as rooted in sex. For me, kink is not inherently sexual at all. It's inherently intimate, yes, but #sex and #intimacy are also different things. They can overlap for people but I still regard them as distinct concepts.

Before I decide to write some long posts about this, I wanted to get a feel for where folx in my fedi-orbit are with these concepts.

Heck, I forgot to include the "being ace is equivalent to celibate" opinion I constantly hear too whenever I tell people I'm on the ace spectrum. I can do that in a future poll.

#Poll #kink #sex #intimacy

@h3mmy as someone who IDs as grey ace/aro I personally use asexuality to refer to sexual attract as opposed to whether you have sex - as far as I'm concerned you can be very sexually active and even kinky whilst still being ace. Also, many people experience forms of attraction other than sexual and romantic.

So for me, I would argue that it doesn't matter if kink is inherently sexual or not as either answer doesn't invalidate being aro or ace.

Of course if it matters to you on a personal level then that's totally fine - but you don't need to worry that being kinky conflicts with asexuality

@h3mmy I think like...kink is sexual, but that the definition of sexuality is so much broader than what our society acknowledges. It's possible to be sexual without being physical obviously. That there are kinds of power exchange that are "sex" and it doesn't have to look or operate anything like Western society dictates, or honestly even how the current BDSM scene trends towards.

I don't think anything is "inherently" sexual, even sexual intercourse, if that makes sense. Sex to me is more about a give and take than a set of acts. I also think "kink" has become a catch-all term for a set of acts in itself in most people's minds, even if that's not its actual definition. And one might be drawn towards types of kink that aren't full of sexual energy, or conversely be drawn towards a type of uncommon sexuality that the current kink scene or definition is still discovering.

Either way, I think it's wrong to say that kink is "rooted in sex" when even defining "sex" is never going to be 100% pinned-down.

@erosdiscordia
You've piqued my interest. I'm curious how you like to define sex, if you're comfortable with that?

There is definitely some interesting diversity with which components of interpersonal dynamics are considered sexual in nature.

I also like this poll @alice did a while ago: https://lgbtqia.space/@alice/113269025996410768 where the conclusion ended up being "sex is whatever all parties involved agree that it is"

@leetxdd
Oh I'm not worried about it conflicing, but I do appreciate you validating that aspect

I agree that being ace has more to do with not feeling sexual attraction. I don't really see someone and feel what others describe as sexual attraction. This is partly why I am irked when people assume it means I'm celibate.

One way I've explained a lack of sexual attraction is that if someone that I otherwise like, asked me to do something with some sort of sexual experience as a reward, it wouldn't be particularly motivating and in fact may have the opposite effect. Now if they offered me a delicious cookie, that might get me to do something faster.

@h3mmy I think we're missing a word here: EROTIC.

Sexuality, intimacy, and eroticism are separate but sometimes overlapping concepts. My succinct definitions are as follows:

SEXUAL: involving contact with (and/or stimulation of) the sexual organs

INTIMATE: involving physical and/or emotional closeness and vulnerability

EROTIC: involving passion, excitement, and physical pleasure

@alpine_thistle
You're right! I did leave out erotic touch for this poll. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

When I've included it in my IRL discussions, it's confused people more instead of clarifying the distinction but that is a different crowd than the Fediverse. You did just make me really happy. I wasn't expecting someone to hop on and also clarify that distinct concept.

@h3mmy it's possible for something to be sexual, but not erotic. It's possible for something to be intimate, but not sexual. It's possible for something to be erotic, but not intimate. (And so forth.) I'd think of these three concepts as three circles in a venn diagram--a lot of people see intimacy/sexuality/eroticism as ONLY the center bit where all three circles overlap, and are unfamiliar with the places where one or two of them are left out.

@h3mmy where kink is concerned, I would place it into the "intimate/erotic" part of the diagram, with optional overlap into "sexual."

@h3mmy @leetxdd I'm a bit curious about this, because I definitely feel sexual attraction to people. But if someone offered me sex as a reward for something else, I'd be turned off and feel manipulated or get the ick. Whereas a cookie for a reward and I'd hardly think twice. That seems pretty normal? Or am I thinking about it wrong?

This isn't to question your aceness, just me admitting that I still struggle to understand what being ace feels like. When some things ace people compare it to, I can relate to, despite not feeling like I'm ace...

TL:DR, any more sharing you felt like doing would be welcome. I do want to learn and understand.

@erosdiscordia
I could have been more clear. I typically use actual people for my examples (with their consent).

For some types of kink scenes, especially predicaments the bottom has to complete some sort of task, and it's only nice to offer them a reward for succeeding. Typically there's also a "funishment" for failing. One classic example is holding up a penny to the wall with ones nose. Hands are bound. Timing is flexible and amount of stimulus is flexible. Additional obstacles could include strategically placed candles, an electrode or two, some whips, etc. If one is adding a sexual element to the scene a strategically placed vibe can add a challenge, or be used for a reward. Non sexual rewards can include treaa like baked goods, head pats, cuddles while talking about books recently read, etc.

So, in that sort of context, sexual activity isn't really something that particularly motivates me. Even if it's something I might enjoy, it's more of an ambivalence to it. Because I talk to a lot of people in the kink community this example usually makes more sense.

A non-kink related explanation might be that I don't really see someone and think of sex acts. I don't hang out with people and then feel any pull towards sexual activity. Even if I've done so with people, and enjoyed it, it's just not a priority choice of activity for me like it might be for many others. I know how it feels in my body when the moon works some magic and I want to want to have sex but not enough to really pursue it. I hope that makes more sense. I'm happy to try and elaborate further if you have more questions.

@leetxdd

@h3mmy @alice That is basically where I'm at! Whatever all parties say it is, basically is what it is. There's also an entire realm of sexuality with yourself, and with kinda the universe at large, that we could have a social conversation about if society would stop snickering about the idea of masturbation for six whole seconds.

It's as fluid as gender.

@h3mmy @alice I think there is a benefit to the traditional "kink as a sex thing" as well as to any boundary-pushing ideas of kink as an interpersonal energy transfer, and everything in between and outside that binary.

I'm thinking of the usefulness of things like "Kink belongs at Pride", and people feeling free to express their sexual being in consenting spaces, which Pride often is set up to be. We still need to be pushing back on puritainism and cruel suppression of sexuality. But the same community is totally also a fertile landscape for pushing the ideas of sexuality beyond just what people do with bodies. Those agendas don't have to be in conflict at all.

@erosdiscordia

I do rope a lot, so I'm going to use that as an example. It takes a lot of trust to let someone tie you up. To be restricted in what and where you can move, allowing yourself to be in a vulnerable state, and trusting that the other will communicate reliably throughout the experience. It's a ritual where there is some degree of power handed off, being in this vulnerable state, and involves all sorts of sensory interaction, textures, smells, touch, sound, and eventually the transfer back followed by re-integration (aftercare).

The same can be said for other elements like impact play, fire play, electro, etc. The vulnerability makes it intimate. And it's a type of play. Humans, we love playing and having deep interpersonal connections with those we play with is part of the experience. Obviously, not every type of interaction is as intimate, and not every type of play involves intimacy or vulnerability.

So, I'm connecting and playing with people at this intimate level, and there aren't any sexual feelings involved. It's a very different experience than one that includes sexual play. That's why I'm bothered when people find it incomprehensible to separate kink from sex.

@h3mmy
A few years ago @danielscardoso helped me come up with this definition for a book I was writing. I still think it's the best I've seen:

Kink is queering the idea of what is sexual both by using nonsexual activities for sexual pleasure and by making normally-sexual activities (including kinky sexual activities) non-sexual.

@JessMahler
I'm still digesting this, but I think it makes sense to me so far.
@danielscardoso

@h3mmy
1. I know on a logical level that kink is not inherently sexual.
2. Unfortunately, on a personal-emotional level, kink is inherently sexual for me.
3. Conversely, I can absolutely separate intimacy and sex.

But my brain is weird. 🤷‍♀️

@h3mmy

My take..

I don't think kink or intimacy are inherently sexual.

I think of kink as an expression of (primarily) psychological intimacy, by way of the physical.

I think of sex as an expression of (primarily) physical intimacy.

I see both kink and sex as (often) involving a significant component of emotional intimacy. Depends on the situation and the partner(s).

I think of kink, sex, and intimacy as being adjacent and complementary, and I think (at least for a sexual person) the three often flow freely into one another, under ideal conditions.

@h3mmy

This is a really interesting discussion that I need to come back to when I have more time, but since I did select "other" in the poll,I figured I should say something about my thoughts.

First, it's easy for me to say that kink is not inherently sexual _when thinking about kinks I am not drawn to_. But all of the situations where I have wanted to try something kinky (there's not many), there has been a sexual component to it.I don't even necessarily mean that it involves some act that would be externally defined as sex, but that the feelings I would hope to receive from it are ones that I associate with sex (and beyond intimacy). So even if kink is not inherently sexual, it is pretty deeply tied to sex in a lot of ways.

I tend to identify as demisexual or something on those lines, but not in a way that makes me not enjoy sexual acts. I even seek them out. I don't think this is an unusual position, but in that context, the original comments you are talking about don't even make sense to me. Like, even if I did think kink were inherently sexual, and someone told me they were ace and active in kink, I wouldn't find that to be contradictory?

@eruonna

That's interesting. I'm definitely curious to hear more about the different feelings you're mentioning. Intimacy, eroticism, and sexual feelings are all different for me with some overlap depending on specifics. For me it's not tied to sex, but I'm also good at tying and untying things so maybe I did something weird

Definitely don't think that is an unusual position. I'm not usually sex-repulsed either, although it does happen sometimes.

There is kind of a vibe of "oh they don't care much for sex because they're sexually satisfied by this elevated form without sex" and that also bothers me. I don't get any sexual feelings from kink and it feels like it's something allos came up with to try and mark some equivalent experience? There are also groups that see it as I'm seeking out kink activities and thus am experiencing some form of sexual attraction. This is also false, because I know how each of those feels and I can comfortably say they're different, at least for me.

Then there are also people who take me at my word initially but over time it becomes clear that they don't really believe me and see it as some sort of code combination to get into my pants.

On the plus side, there are also many people who don't even bat an eye and immediately understand. I get along with them great.

@pockets I respect this and completely understand it. I suspect for many people kink and sex are inseparable on a personal-emotional level, and they take a naive-realism approach to applying it to everyone. I can understand that for some people it's not separate due to their personal experiences and feelings around it.

@h3mmy first two options and also other...

other: I reckon kink is a consensual subversion of whatever cultural norms define as pleasurable, beautiful, enjoyable, desirable. Sex is the most obvious pleasurable, beautiful, enjoyable, desirable thing. But we can be kinky about any kind of pleasure.

This is essentially a [soy sauce on ice cream is kinky] argument.

@coolandnormal

And RACK is informing that soy sauce is not gluten free and that people with allergies may consider using tamari sauce instead.

But really, chile oil on ice cream is underrated

@h3mmy My exposure to kink is mostly limited to Hellraiser, Sunstone, and Cronenberg, so my mind doesn't immediately jump to kink = sex.

@benetnasch

All are quite formative for many of my peers. I wonder if there's some sort of connection there.

@h3mmy For me, being ace doesn't imply anything about what type of sex or romance I like, any more than being gay or bi would imply anything about the type of sex or romance that a gay or bi person likes.

@h3mmy I'm not attracted to people's bodies. Seeing a person of any gender's body does not make me want to sleep with them or be in a relationship with them.

I'm sexually attracted to kink scenarios and people in them.

I'm romantically attracted to relationships that involve significant power exchange.

@orange
Would you say that kink scenes "scratch the same itch" or "push the same buttons" as someone would get from quality sex? I'm trying to understand being sexually attracted to kink scenes and people in those scenes. I've had a few people mention this now and I want to make sure I get it right.

I've found people have some interesting definitions of romance. When you say you are romantically attracted to relationships with significant power exchange, I am interpreting that to mean that you prefer being in romantic relationships when they involve significant power exchange. Hopefully that's correct. I feel unqualified to properly interpret romantic stuff being hopelessly aro

@h3mmy I don't think that's any different than a lesbian who engages in (and enjoys) kink or power exchange with men.

After getting some interesting feedback, I would like to add some questions without resetting the results in the first version of the poll. So, this is an adjunct #Poll to complement it

Select the statements you relate with.

#kink #sex #intimacy

@h3mmy On the sexual attraction side, my feeling is that kink facilitates sexual attraction.

On the romantic side, my feeling is less that d/s facilitates a romantic attraction and more that it's a substitute for romantic attraction.

@h3mmy So, yes on the sexual side I think it scratches the same itch.

But no, on the romantic side I don't think kink causes romantic attraction. It substitutes for it.

@orange
That makes sense. Thank you!

@h3mmy Let me say my favourite distinction between kink and fetish. Kink is what you want, fetish is what you need.

@h3mmy damn, you hitting with the hard questions!

In my mind, intimacy is a show of vulnerability with the clear expectation that it will not be violated. It can be a shared show of vulnerability or it can be one-sided.
Sex can be vulnerable, or not, depending on the mindset of participants.
Kink can also be vulnerable or not, although I imagine it more often is vulnerable.
Maybe a distinction could be on the one-sidedness? Kink is in my mind more likely to vulnerable only on one side, but that might be a kind of conflation of kink and dom/sub relationship specifically.

Anyway, I think my takeaway is that vulnerability is what can make kink and sex similar, but understanding that vulnerability is not all there is to either (and maybe not even a requirement) allows you to distinguish between the two as distinct things.

@jul I feel we are mostly on the same page.

I view intimacy as closeness. We have many different layers and masks. To know parts of someone beneath those layers is intimate, and allows people closer. To let down defenses and "expose" one's self that is normally guarded, is one form of vulnerability.

We are guarded for reasons. Someone could be queer and not very open about it except in the community. They are more themselves, and more vulnerable and sincere, and the community accepts it which helps foster a level of intimacy. A simple example, and there are plenty of complexities involved. This lines up with your statement of vulnerability except there isn't necessarily a clear expectation that it will not be violated. There is a degree of trust that will not happen, yes.

I think this is where I can get fuzzy because of the complexities involved. When I'm being vulnerable, I understand the risks, and I accept them. I'm trusting that the people I'm engaging with are going to do their best, but accidents do happen and don't have to be malicious.

Kink being a form of play requires a certain degree of vulnerability. It requires a lot of trust. I don't feel it is as one sided, but maybe somewhat asymmetrical. A scene top and bottom get different things out of the experience, but I don't think that it makes it one-sided. If I'm topping for a scene, I have boundaries and things I won't do, I'm trusting the scene bottom to communicate important information, and I'm trusting them to do sensory checks, etc for certain types of scenes. I'm also trusting that the scene bottom will be forthcoming and trusting themselves. For many people, simply being open and honest about what they are feeling is vulnerable. If a kink scene is activating a trauma association, they are trusting the partner to caretake that through the scene and aftercare. There are many other examples, but I think that paints a picture.

I think maybe if someone is doing a scene that also involves a degree of dom/sub dynamics and using a different set of masks for domming, that may lend to being more asymmetrical but not totally one-sided. Obviously, a kink scene does not need to include any D/s dynamics nor does it need to align with a scene top/bottom rope.

I think sex is also different degrees of vulnerable depending on the people involved and the interaction context. There is a certain minimum amount of vulnerability involved in giving someone power over sensitive parts, even from afar. This kind of puts a dial on it for different degrees of intimacy.

I may be biased but I feel that kink has more of a requirement for vulnerability than sex does, but both can get very intimate depending on the particulars.

I think of intimacy as a distinct concept independent of kink or sex or eroticism. Seeing a trusted therapist for a session is intimate. We're vulnerable, peeling off a lot of guards and connecting through that. It's not sexual, nor kinky, nor erotic, but it is intimate.

Kink helps fulfill a different need than sex does based on my understanding. However, I do know that some people use either for the same type of needs. One of the overlapping needs is likely some degree of intimate connection, and I think that is one of the areas where they can get conflated sometimes.

@Azzura
Interesting, I see them as different things altogether. Like a fetish is something that is specific to sexual gratification. Whereas kink is independent of sexual components.

I have heard people use the want-need dichotomy for kinky sex and fetishes, so maybe that's where they're closer?

I like sensory play, and have a sensitive snoot. If I'm in the wild taking deep breaths in a meadow, allowing the aroma to percolate my lungs and induce a relaxed meditative state, it's pretty similar to a sensory scene, feeling wise. If we say that's a kink, then maybe a fetish would be the smell exciting a particular part of my brain filling me with thoughts of "Pollinate me, Daddy!". Does that sound right?

@h3mmy Both have a deep root in sexuality, especially in explicit sexual conduct. But I think they evolved beyond that, especially in my lifetime. Like 30 years ago, kink would generally be described as a deviant sexual behaviour, where the "deviant" means anything that differs from a heteronormative description of sex. But I think both (kink and fetish) outgrew or somewhat severe the sexual ties. But you are on the right path that fetish is still more tied to sex than kink.

Back then, if someone in a kink community engaged in impact play or temperature play, everyone assumed that the goal was seeking sexual gratification. Now that is more understood and accepted that not necessarily is the goal for everyone.

As per the term fetish, you are right about that in people’s minds it is more connected to sex. But the core difference from kink is not that, instead, the pathological nature of it. The person with fetish could not get that gratification (and here I argue, not just sexual) without the object of the fetish.

Interesting example, I feel not quite right. I would rephrase it a little. Like kink is that you are seeking a meditative state by going to the meadow and breathing in all sorts of different aromas. But if you can't go to the meadow, it's okay, you can still reach a meditative state for example with the use of incense. Fetish, on the other hand, is when you need to inhale a particular pollen in a particular meadow in a particular way to be able to reach a meditative state.

I hope that makes sense.

@Azzura
That makes sense, and I do acknowledge that the word has been associated with sexuality. Kind of the science of the western puritanical world shunning anything outside the "nuclear family cisheteronormative missionary sex centered around the almighty dick" as deviant.

Shibari was historically not treated as purely sexual with the origins being in prisoner restraint. But I can see how many people would assume it was purely for sexual satisfaction. It's similar to how many people conflate terms like love and sex and intimacy instead of treating them as distinct concepts. This is in spite of the different types of love being categorized since the ancient times. Language and culture are always fascinating to me.

I've heard some people say they consider fetishes to be specifically sexual, and either necessary for arousal or have the potential to become necessary. You mention that you'd argue it's not necessarily sexual, and decouple the sexual part of the flower smelling, while making it very specific. If I can get a specific meditative state from, say LSD, does that mean it's a fetish?

Thanks for continuing to discuss this. I like getting lots of different perspectives on things and I appreciate that you're more familiar with usage over time first hand unlike me.

@jul

I like your idea of connecting vulnerability with intimacy. But not how kink works. I’d argue there is little to no vulnerability involved. Unless you’ve considered being vulnerable to tell someone what you want. In a kink scene, you should know what would happen before you even begin.

And if a scene or a sex is one-sided, that just means it is bad. Maybe not explicit abuse, but get out of it and seek another partner.

Speaking of…

Stop. Romanticiing. Abuse.

Kink should never be one-sided. That is abuse. There is a lot of outdated and misguided information out there. Don’t fall for it. Please engage with your local kink community instead.

@h3mmy

@Azzura
I feel like there's some terminology differences here. If I'm tying someone up, they're in a vulnerable position. Being physically restrained is vulnerable. Being honest with feelings is vulnerable. I fully agree that in a kink scene expectations should be very clear. I think maybe there are different versions of the word vulnerability being used?

And by one-sided, I feel they meant that one person is meeting the others wants/needs and not themselves so much. Asymmetrical is better word because all parties do get something out of the experience, just different things.

For sex, it's not uncommon for it to be asymmetrical. A common motif is turn taking, but even then it's just parties getting different things out of the experience. On the occasions I do have sex with other people, I'm often what is known as a stone top, meaning I'm focused on the other person and don't want any sexual touch on myself. It's fulfilling for all parties, but asymmetrical.

As for the messaging to stop romanticism of abuse, I think that is a good general message for the readers and especially people who are less familiar with kink. I sometimes forget that certain people think of kink as abuse. (Not so) Fun fact: Freud, the purveyor of so much bad science, believed that female sexuality was so inherently masochistic that women couldn't be diagnosed as masochists because it wasn't aberrant behavior.

@jul

@h3mmy You have very well refined my rough thoughts!
You seem to speak from a position of a lot more experience than me on kink, and I trust your perspective on it.

Indeed, what I phrased as an expectation of no violation can be more accurately thought of as some sort of "hope of acceptance an no malicious exploitation", it's a more nuanced and better way to express it.
In the same vein, asymmetry is a much much much more articulate way to say what I meant than "one-sided". You can put yourself in a position of power imbalance, but that does not mean trust does not go both ways!

Thank you for this, you've helped combing through my neurons to clarify some thoughts! 😊

@h3mmy Also, you've mentioned trust... In my mind trust and vulnerability are intimately linked (heh, here's intimacy again...)
Putting your trust in someone is giving them some amount of power over you, which is putting yourself in a vulnerable position.
Even more so because you do it mostly voluntarily!

@jul
I fully agree with that notion and it makes perfect sense to my brain.

@Azzura
I'm also realizing I use the flower analogy a lot when sex and sensory topics come up I've said "Pollinate me, daddy!" at least three times on this account. On average once a year.

@h3mmy this is really interesting! I would love to read your posts about this because I’ve sometimes heard it said that sex and intimacy are separate, or that kink is not inherently sexual, but I’ve never been able to properly conceptualize what that means. those concepts are very very closely linked in my head, if they’re even separate concepts in my head at all. I think I might need to see examples for it to really click

@h3mmy the connections between asexuality, sex, arousal, attraction, etc. are all very foreign to me too tbh. for example I’ve heard that any or all of these things can be true of people under the ace umbrella:

• they do or don’t experience arousal
• they do or don’t experience romantic and/or sexual attraction to others
• they do or don’t masturbate
• they do or don’t desire sex
• they do or don’t have sex
• it’s possible for some of them to have sex despite not desiring sex per se and still enjoy it in some way
• etc.

and I find it all very confusing. I assume that there must be a very rich and complex spectrum that I’m totally unaware of, and I’d really like to learn more about that

@h3mmy
I have been well educated that my brain is wired differently than a lot of folks (especially with stuff that's quite insignificant in comparison), so fortunately I don't fall victim to that naivety of thinking everyone else thinks the same way I do.

@kasdeya

Thank you! For me, when I was younger it was like they were in different colored compartments in my brain with a lot of flowy in-between areas. People not being consistent with their context-dependent usage of the terms only confused me more. It has been kind of validating to hear from several people that they have some similar interlinkages

I'm currently working on a draft I should be able to post sometime this week. But in the meantime I did post a comment here to try and describe what I feel makes intimacy a distinct concept: https://lgbtqia.space/@h3mmy/114721556022286295

@h3mmy thank you for the reply, and for that link! that definitely helped me a lot with the concept of intimacy and how it can be non-sexual, non-romantic, etc. I think I have a pretty clear picture of what that word means now. I’m also glad to know that you’re working on a draft of your post. if you have the energy, I would love if you could @ me once the post is done because I’m pretty likely to miss it otherwise

I also wanted to bring up some points of confusion in case they help you write your post

I’m having trouble with the concept of “erotic”, which is something that you mentioned in another comment in this comment-tree. specifically I’m having trouble understanding if erotic feelings are distinct from sexual arousal, or from the feeling of anticipating sexual pleasure, or from the feeling of having romantic contact with someone (like kissing or cuddling). if it’s distinct from all of these things (which I think it might be?) then I’m not sure if I can think of any emotion that could match its description. I wonder if “erotic” might be the feeling of savoring a sensory experience - like doing a meditation where you slowly and mindfully eat a piece of fruit

I think the main thing that I’m having trouble understanding is the concept of nonsexual kink. it sounds like this might be a kind of playful exploration of things like physical sensations (like pain) or of being {restrained or made helpless} for its own sake. so I’m guessing that there isn’t necessarily any sexual arousal involved in nonsexual kink. I would be interested to know if the presence of sexual arousal in a kink scene would make it count as sexual (rather than nonsexual) kink for you or if it’s only the presence of sexual activity that would put it into that category. and also (this may be too personal of a question) how you would feel knowing that a kink partner was sexually aroused during a scene with you. I guess I wonder if that might be uncomfortable to know, in the same way that it might be during a non-kink-related activity. I think that would help me understand where the borders are between sexual and nonsexual kink

I’m also interested to know which aspects of kink could be done in a nonsexual way. because for example I have a hard time imagining sucking someone’s toe being a nonsexual act, but that might just be because my understanding of kink is more limited. but also, what about more rough/forceful types of dominance and submission? or what about master/slave play, or degradation, or humiliation? those are also things that are very very closely connected to sexual arousal and sex in my mind, but I wonder if they could be done in nonsexual ways

anyway I’m not sure if any of this is helpful, but I wanted to be clear about the questions that I had and the things that I’m most confused by at the moment

@kasdeya

Completely understandable. You are absolutely correct that there is a rich and complex spectrum and is frequently misunderstood.

Definitions are tricky and many people use different versions. And obviously, I can't speak for all aces, mostly only myself and my understanding of some of my peers. I'll go through the list you provided. It's actually a helpful starting point and I'll just elaborate on my interpretation.

> they do or don’t experience arousal

Arousal is a physical and/or mental state. Physical arousal in this context is stuff like genital engorgement, feeling warm/etc. Mental arousal is the "I want to have this experience" itch that minds can get.

Say, I like apples, and I have a bright juicy crispy apple in front of me. Mental arousal is me wanting to eat the apple and imagining the bite, the sound of the skin and flesh yielding to my teeth, the smell of it, the sensation and taste of the juices flowing into my mouth with enthusiasm, etc. Physical arousal would be my mouth watering either in response to the sight of the apple or the thought of it.

There can also be "nonconcordance" where the physical and mental arousals don't align. If my mouth is watering while I bite into a wormy rotten apple, it doesn't mean I'm enjoying it, etc. Similarly, I can have the physical response to the mental arousal, but have no physical or mental response when it's actually in front of me. This is to illustrate that arousal is mostly independent of desire.

So, aces can and do experience arousal to varying degrees just like allo folx.

> they do or don’t experience romantic and/or sexual attraction to others

Romantic attraction is the desire to have a romantic relationship with someone. Defining what a romantic relationship is or isn't is a bit tricky, but sex is definitely not a requirement. People who don't feel romantic attractions are usually on the aromantic spectrum. This is a different dimension compared to asexuality and they're a little correlated but distinct. Roughly half of surveyed ace people also identify as some form of aro. (2016 Asexual Community Survey)

Sexual attraction is the desire to have a sexual relationship with someone. This can be as minimal as a single short encounter from across the world. Using our apple analogy, it's feeling active hunger for a particular target, such as an apple. Most asexual folx don't experience this, or they experience it rarely or under very particular circumstances only. They may be averse to eating apples entirely, or maybe they need to know the apple first and have a specific level of connection to the apple, some may feel some hunger for apples if it's part of a caprese salad, and so on.

With my apples, I like to slice them up first. Make sure there's no worms or weird spots. If I'm feeling really confident, or let an intrusive thought get the better of me I may just cronch it directly regardless of whether I was hungry at all let alone for apples. Or if it was part of a bit, etc. This isn't meant to be an analogy for my sexual attraction patterns, but it's not _entirely_ wrong. Most of the time I do forget that apples even exist and eating them is a thing I could do. They just don't pull me in like a strawberry might.

> they do or don’t masturbate

People masturbate for various reasons. A lot of those reasons don't really require sexual attraction.

If I'm feeling weird, I might try a snack to see if that fixes it. Or get a really strong craving for something non-specific, and maybe chocolate would fix it, but an apple was right there and available so it got nommed instead. Maybe it didn't even fix the feeling, and I needed to go for a walk to feel right. I hope I didn't lose the analogy.

Some aces report feeling some sexual drive, but it's not really directed at anything, and masturbation scratches the itch just fine. Others might report having the mental arousal, say from my description of eating an apple and need to chomp into their favorite fruit real quick because they're not particularly interested in apples and going to go get some apples just isn't going to be worth the effort.

So aces can masturbate and still be ace, and they can skip it and still be just as ace.

> they do or don’t desire sex

This sort of goes in hand with sexual attraction. Some people will make distinctions between the attraction and the desire. This would be similar to the thought of feeling like you want to eat an apple and the actual feeling you want to bite into a firm juicy apple.

People have desires in different ways. I often have a responsive type of sex drive. The desire is either academic or is just only there when the stars align with some particular context in the moment, with the apple right there with it's smells and textures.

> they do or don’t have sex
>
> it’s possible for some of them to have sex despite not desiring sex and still enjoy it in some way

I'm bundling these ones. The ace spectrum is wide. There are sex-repulsed aces that have a disgust reaction to even the thought of having sex, there are sex averse aces that don't really like the idea of having sex but can't really explain why. There are sex-ambivalent or sex-positive aces that are comfortable with the idea of having sex and can enjoy the experience.

Some people want to just make their partner(s) happy, or enjoy the experience of it just like playing a tabletop game with their partner(s). They don't necessarily get the same _kind_ of experience from sex as much as someone who is allosexual.

There is so so much more to it. I'm happy to answer more questions from my perspective, and probably also continue writing long posts like this one.

For bonus reading, I highly recommend Angela Chen's book about asexuality and Emily Nagoski's book "Come as you are" for explanations by wordier people.

@kasdeya
These are excellent questions!! I really appreciate the thought you've put into them, and I think they are very helpful for me to use for structuring my next post. Thank you!

I will @ you so you don't miss it

@h3mmy yayy thank you! I really appreciate it. I also really appreciate all of the effort you put into your other reply to me, and I’m definitely going to reply to that as soon as I have the spoons to spare

@h3mmy none of these are particularly helpful for the intimacy truth

@astraluma You are correct!

My intent with this sub-poll is to gauge where people in my orbit are with regards to these statements. It's to help me prioritize which things I should try to discuss in my upcoming posts. The comments have been exceptionally helpful in illustrating some different perspectives I wasn't considering initially. I also intend to summarize the poll results with more of my thoughts.

If you'd like to read my take on intimacy specifically, I have a post here where I talk about it: https://lgbtqia.space/@h3mmy/114721556022286295

@h3mmy @erosdiscordia@onycha.monster

The rope example is astute and I never thought about it that way. For me it's entirely sexual though, I've been monogamous for 24/25 years and never tied someone other than my partner. I'm really not sure that I could do that well now that I think about it, I just don't experience it that way.

Okay, I thought of an analogy; skydiving. It was a BIG step for me to let some person throw me out of a plane. Like a huge barrier but I did it with a friend, we both succeeded and learned something about trust. I'm really not sure what a dynamic would have to look like to allow myself to tie or be tied by someone that I wasn't in a deeply trusting relationship with.

What an interesting thing to explore, thanks!

@h3mmy Kink is sometimes sexual for me, but often not.

Going further, I'd say that sex is an extension of my kink life, rather than kink being an extension of my sex life.

I don't care much about sex at all outside of what it can do for scenes.

@Misofist That's an interesting way to frame it.

You don't have to answer this question: I'm curious, if you're doing a predicament scene, would you pick some sort of sexual type of reward or funishment at all? Or is it on even footing with something like a giant chocolate chip cookie (assuming you like cookies)

@h3mmy thank you for this! you clearly put a lot of work into this post and it definitely helped a lot. I think I was looking at asexuality in a naively un-nuanced way, even when I tried to account for the fact that I was probably doing that lol. so all of this was really helpful to read

it’s fascinating to me to imagine someone with a directionless sex drive (because they don’t experience sexual arousal at a specific concept/person/appearance/etc.) that they satisfy by masturbating periodically. I imagine that they probably (in most cases) wouldn’t fantasize about anything, so it would just be a physical act that feels good and satisfies a need just like scratching an itch or eating a cookie, but please correct me if I’m wrong about any of this

also I’m really fascinated by the concept of an ace person who doesn’t experience desire for sex per se, but who still has sex as a way to connect with a partner, to make someone else feel good, or to enjoy the experience of it in a way that doesn’t involve sexual attraction. maybe in a way that’s similar to the masturbation concept I was thinking of above, but involving a partner because doing so has other benefits? I imagine that for non-sex-repulsed ace people, sex still physically feels good, right? so maybe they could enjoy the act of having sex just because it feels good and satisfies a need, or because they like making other people feel good, even if there’s no sexual attraction or desire involved

and thank you for the book recommendations! I’m very low-spoons these days so I may not be able to read them but I definitely want to keep them in mind and I hope that I’ll be able to eventually - I find the whole spectrum of human (and alterhuman, nonhuman, etc.) experiences around sex/romance/kink/etc. to be fascinating and I’ve really enjoyed getting to learn more about the aro/ace side of things from you

since it sounds like aro and ace are pretty huge umbrellas, do you know of a good source for me to learn about more granular terms? like for example maybe there’s a term for ace people who aren’t interested in sex under the vast majority of circumstances, vs. a term for an ace person who has sex but for reasons that aren’t related to sexual attraction/desire, etc.

I’m not sure if I have many questions to ask you yet - more like ramblings as I try to process this information lol. but I appreciate you answering my questions in so much detail and so clearly, and I might send you another message in the future if I have more questions later (once I’ve processed everything a little better)

@kasdeya
I'm glad this is helpful! I appreciate how you are approaching this with curiosity and you are asking really good questions that let me springboard into my mini-infodumps.

You are right that some of the people who have directionless sex-drives wouldn't fantasize about anything. Some of them may perceive it as scratching an itch or eating a cookie. Heck, even some allo people do this sometimes when they vibe out for a few minutes to fall asleep faster (based on what I hear). Some of them may focus on the sensations and mapping them out like astronauts recording data. Obviously, I definitely can't speak for everyone in this subgroup.

Some may actually fantasize about things, and some may consume certain types of media (books, comics, porn, erotica, music, etc). Aegosexual folx would experience sexual attraction in only the abstract sense that's detached from their physical self. Like being attracted to the idea, but the actual in-person scenario is a flashing red-light.

An ace person who has sex as a way to connect with a partner doesn't need to ascribe any drive to it. I would treat it differently than the masturbation scenario. Not only is it different because of the interpersonal aspect, but also they'd be doing it for different reasons. And with sex you don't need both parties to be experiencing the same stimulus. When I have sex with someone, I'm often what's known as a stone top. In that role, I don't really want any focused sexual touch on my body. I don't need it to enjoy myself, and climax isn't usually the goal for either party anyway. So you definitely got it right when you say that sexual attraction or desire is not required here.

This gets a bit more complex in a kink context, but I'm going to go over that scenario in a different post.

Of course, you should definitely budget spoons in the best way that makes sense to you. I like when I can trust people to do that when I'm having chats with them. I have text chains with several days between responses, and occasionally sub threads for a tangential quick question. I expect people to get back to me when they feel like they have the right spoons and I just ask them to expect the same from me. I like to read so I should generally have book recommendations ready to go whenever you end up having spoons.

For granular terms you may check out https://www.asexuality-handbook.com
https://wiki.asexuality.org
arospec-ed on tumblr also has great resources with flowcharts.

I'm always happy to answer questions so feel free to take your time and chew on the information

@kasdeya The aromantic spectrum is as complex as the asexual spectrum, and mirrors it in a lot of ways. About three quarters of participants in the 2020 Aro Census identified as asexual, but that's generally suspected to reflect the fact that many find out about aromaticism through the asexual community, which is older and more visible, and not really reflect how many aros are ace.

@h3mmy

@h3mmy i’d like to answer this poll but just don’t have the will.

@MishaVanMollusq That's okay. You can always message me when you feel up for it. I completely understand having periods of time where everything is bleh, especially during flare-ups
*hugs offered* 🫂

@kasdeya The expectation that every adult should be pursuing a romantic relationship that they prioritize greatly over all other relationships and center their life around is called amantonormativity and is pretty harmful to aros. We're subject to a lot of prejudice because of it; people who violate amantonormativity are depicted as predators or broken in the media.

@h3mmy

@kasdeya One thing that's fairly common for arospecs that apparently rarely happens for others is suddenly realizing out of nowhere that you have an enormously incredible amount of platonic love for your best friend. That's happened to me more than once. Amantonormativity says you're not supposed to care that much about someone you're not romantically involved with, and it's pretty much impossible to tell them without it being interpreted as a romantic move.

@h3mmy

@kasdeya You might be interested to learn that I'm aroflux, which means I've personally experienced a sizeable chunk of the aromantic spectrum at some point in my life. I'll probably be tomorrow at about the same place I am today, but I can't promise that I'll feel the same way a year from now. That made figuring myself out as a kid/young adult challenging, especially since I was not ace and that part of me didn't change.

@h3mmy

@BernieDoesIt I have lots of love for my friends. I never had any kind of sudden realization though. I ended up approaching it from the side of not comprehending romantic distinctions at all. For me it was more like "WTF is this romantic stuff about? Why is a date different than just a hangout? No I definitely don't want any kind of unspoken expectations, hard pass on that" and so on.

You are right that trying to communicate love to a platonic friend without it coming off as romantic can be difficult sometimes. Especially when we don't have the language for it.

Just in case, I very highly recommend "Hopelessly Aromantic" to anyone questioning whether they are arospec and "The other significant others" for examples of queerplatonic relationships and the complications that arise for people in these types of relationships. They're more common than people think.

@kasdeya

@BernieDoesIt

I have heard lots of people say that learning that they were arospec was made more challenging because they weren't ace. I feel like that is a good thing to mention. I'd love to hear more about your journey if you're willing to share.

I know people in the aro-but-not-ace category catch a lot of stigma and get labeled by an amatonormative society as "being afraid of commitments" or something dumb like that. But it is so prevalent and we're conditioned from a young age so getting past the internalized aro-phobia isn't very straightforward

@kasdeya

@h3mmy @kasdeya I had my first crush at a typical age but I was extremely romance-repulsed. For the next several years I always had a crush on someone, and some of those were quite intense, so I know what romantic attraction feels like. The repulsion slowly went away, but that just led to indifference towards romance.

@h3mmy @kasdeya That's actually when I realized I was aro, even though I had a really strong crush at the time. I just didn't see myself ever motivated enough to form a meaningful long-term bond.

That's not actually something people called themselves back then. I didn't have a word for it, but I knew from pop culture and history that there were some people who never settled down with someone else, and while I knew a lot of them were closeted gays, they couldn't all be.

@h3mmy @kasdeya I think at one point shortly after that I was actually alloromantic for a few months.

Then I switched schools. I didn't have a crush on anyone at first because I didn't know anyone, but I figured that would change eventually. It never did. It took me a long time to realize that, but I was kind of relieved about it.

People talk about romantic attraction and sexual attraction being linked or even basically the same thing, but they never were for me.

@h3mmy @kasdeya My romantic attractions were the same gender as people I found security attractive, and I didn't find them sexually unappealing, but there was only one person I was romantically interested in that I found previously sexy.

Anyway, fast-forward to college. By then I was getting the "What do you mean you haven't been interested in anyone in years? You're too picky!" and "You know, if you're gay you can just tell me and I'm ok with it. You don't have to hide"

@h3mmy @kasdeya At that point I had no reason to think I'd ever be romantically interested in anyone ever again. On the other hand, I knew I wanted kids, and forming a romantic relationship still seemed like the best option available to me, so I decided that since I got along so well with my best friend and liked to be with them so much, I'd ask them out. I thought maybe I could have made that work.

@h3mmy @kasdeya Unfortunately, before I could decide what I was going to ask them to do with me, they told me they had a boyfriend. "Congratulations," my mouth said. "Well, there goes that idea," my brain said. By the time I knew they were single again I had lost the never to try again.

I'm not sure if that happened before I realized I was the platonic equivalent of head-over-heels with them. I think it was before.

@h3mmy @kasdeya (I lost contact with them decades ago, sadly, but secretly I'm still platonically head-over-heels with them and they never knew.) Incidentally, while I'm sure you wouldn't recognize their name, you would recognize one thing they did because it was all over the news. (I had a whatever-happened-to moment a few years ago and was very surprised to see they were partly responsible for something I'd heard of. NGL about having feelings of inadequacy.

@h3mmy @kasdeya That's also why I'm using their correct but ahistoric pronouns.)

Eventually, though, I did start having romantic interest in other people again. That didn't surprise me, even though you'd think it might. It never was an all-the-time thing like it was when I was a kid, but it happened. Sometimes it was a demi kind of thing but just about as often it was a relative stranger.

@h3mmy @kasdeya I never did end up ever asking anyone out. All of my relationships have been from blind dates, but one of those relationships really worked out and I fell in romantic love.

I'm married now, and I have times when I feel romantic attraction and times I really don't, but I doubt my spouse can tell the difference. I always love my spouse; it just feels different sometimes. We have kids, and they're super awesome.

@BernieDoesIt
Wanting to "settle down with someone and have kids" is interpreted by many as a type of romantic urge. It's kind of hazy territory though. I'm curious, how do you define romantic attraction, and how do you define a romantic relationship?

@kasdeya

@BernieDoesIt
I think another component here is the mononormativity. Why can't I be friends with someone who has a partner? (Rhetorical question)

Usually what happens is one has friends, they partner up and start hanging out way less because of the extra value placed on romantic entanglements compared to meaningful friendships.
@kasdeya

@BernieDoesIt
I appreciate you sharing your story and your joyful connections. Thank you
@kasdeya

@h3mmy @kasdeya Romantic attraction for me is a very specific feeling that's hard to describe, but the closest experience I can compare it to is eating strawberry ice cream. Specifically strawberry. It's a component of a crush, but crushes also have a feeling something like excitement or anxiety and a weird compulsion to them. Unlike every other form of attraction, I'm only capable of feeling it towards one person at a time, and sometimes towards zero.

@h3mmy @kasdeya Don't get me wrong; it's a really nice feeling, but I don't really miss it when it's gone. It certainly doesn't motivate me like it apparently motivates most people even when I do feel it.

"Romantic relationship" is a bit harder for me to define. I wouldn't say my marriage isn't a romantic relationship even when I'm going through a period when I can't feel romantic. Even if I hadn't fallen romantically in love I still think I'd call it a romantic rel.

@h3mmy @kasdeya I'd do that just because it's based off the "romantic relationship" template society provides.

@h3mmy @kasdeya Oh, one other interesting tidbit is that I've always found love songs kind of overrated, and my brain more or less automatically finds alternative non-romantic impressions of love songs or parts of them. They're often about friendship in my mind, but sometimes about political issues or other things. Sometimes I even want to quote song lyrics to someone when they're relevant only to realize they're only relevant after a huge amount of private interpretation