@kasdeya I'm curious about the chill exploration and expansion concept, and sort of what you would be looking for there too.

Have you played much from the turn based strategy side, or like paradox style real-time but with speed settings and pausable games? I like them for being similar, but slower and more chill than a full on RTS.

Could also look into The Colonists (more chill) or Anno (more realistic) for some more economic/building based games. (I was looking to double check that I didn't forget anything, and I think I'm gonna check out Factory Town, but that might be more automation than strategy.)

Sins of a Solar Empire is a full on space RTS that I think has adjustable speeds and pausing, so could be an option.

Company of Heroes is more military themed, and I think also lets you pause to assign orders. But it is a smaller battlefield I think, so might not hit exactly how you want.

Warcraft III is honestly a viable option too. It's much slower in terms of combat than other single-speed RTSes, and there are balance trade offs for having a larger army, so you can still play smaller too. This was my middle/high school game, so obviously rose coloured glasses and dated, but I used to enjoy setting up large maps with lots of opponents, and sorta turtling and running around improving my heroes haha. Since units have higher health, you have more time to react and mico, and then army sizes are not insane.

The WC3 campaign is also a classic, it is hard in some spots and not always an RTS lol, but it's fun and some of the big classic Warcraft lore.

Wartorn looks awesome and has some similarities to the WC3 campaign, for what it is worth. I'm adding it to my watch/wishlist, so thanks for the mention.

On the switch, Unicorn Overlord is *so good*, and has a variabletime/pause tactical map, where you have to manage unit movement and split your forces, so it has some RTS elements, but the combat system is *intriguing*. I think it would also work well for a dungeon core game, I really like it.

Not an RTS, (or realtime at all) but a fantasy strategy game, I've been intrigued by Spellforce: Conquest of Eo, and I think you might be too. I haven't finished a single game lol, but it's really interesting how you recruit units and have hero units, and then you kinda have to move your main city around the map and split off hero units for different missions and to plant their areas of influence, and it definitely gives you that spread across the map feeling, but turn based. Also has pick from an option upgrades on level up, which are always fun.

@Shivaekul ooh omg thank you for the recommendations! I’ve definitely been interested, in the past, in RTSes with pauseable real-time (I think that’s the term?) - especially if it’s bound to an easy button like spacebar. I don’t think I could play any RTS where there’s any kind of time limit for my decisions - even if that time limit is like 5-10 minutes. since I can’t learn under any kind of time pressure. so being able to pause at any time would help a lot with that

unfortunately I don’t think that I could get into a turn-based strategy game. I tried playing Civ 5 and felt both bored and stressed at the same time lol. although Polytopia is pretty fun actually so idk. maybe I just don’t like turn-based strategy where you have to think really carefully for each move, because that slows down the pace of the game so much and makes me second-guess myself a lot

I actually did try Company of Heroes! I loved the animations and the sound design and just how high-quality everything felt in general. but it had such a zoomed-in camera that I felt like I couldn’t see anything and I got frustrated and quit lol. like I was in the tutorial and trying to get an idea of the path my units should take through the terrain to avoid enemy sightlines and I just couldn’t do it - I forgot the terrain layout as soon as it was off-camera again. I probably should have been using the minimap instead but it’s weird to me that like 90% of the screen is taken up by such a myopic view of the battlefield

so I guess another important RTS thing for me is being able to zoom the camera in and out

I actually tried Supreme Commander 2 at one point and that game lets you pause at any point and has a zoomable camera! but I kept losing on the very first level and learning the mechanics through trial-and-error and that felt really bad lol. I’m still not entirely sure what I was doing wrong on that level, or what I was expected to do at all :/

so the RTS game that I would want to make would be about terraforming a planet that’s been taken over by an eldritch hive mind. the hive mind would have spawners that create units (up to a certain maximum number of units) but it wouldn’t be able to ramp up its economy - it would only produce a linear amount of units that you would reduce by destroying the spawners

also, the enemies would wait for you to come to them - they wouldn’t suddenly rush at you out of nowhere lol. they would basically be guarding different resource deposits

so the way the game would work would be that you would land on a few resource deposits and set up some extraction equipment and network it all together (while also setting up defenses if there are any enemies in the area). after your base was running well you would go out and destroy any spawners that are giving you trouble in the area, which would make your base totally safe from attack

and at that point there would be nothing for you to do but go out and explore, fighting off enemies that you encounter and trying to find more resources to harvest. once you find them, you’d need to set up a supply chain to defend them (giving your units ammo and supplies to keep the resource defended, but also transporting the resource back to your base) and then you’d continue the cycle of destroying any spawners in the area again

I hope that makes sense! I really like this style of gameplay because multitasking is optional, and you can rest in between exploration/combat and just manage your base instead

I guess I’m kinda just describing Creeper World but I’m imagining a game with more traditional RTS units that you can control, and the base-building would be like an extremely simplified version of Factorio or Mindustry. this is also a bit inspired by Pikmin, since Pikmin lets you take as long as you need to gather resources, and combat only happens while you’re exploring new areas

@Shivaekul oh also! I have tried Stellaris in the past and had a similar experience with it that I had with Civ 5 unfortunately. it felt boring and stressful at the same time - it felt like all there was to do was scan planets and build structures on them but it also felt like I was scanning and building completely the wrong planets/structures lol. but thank you for mentioning those! it was a good thought

@kasdeya I think I understand that difference in feeling between turn-based and pauseable RTS games. Like turn-based games give you a lot of time, but things feel so permanent and stressful sometimes, like they are locked in when you press that end turn button. I know I have just straight walked away from my computer when stressing on decisions before haha, which I like being able to do, but I understand why you would not enjoy it as well. Especially when it may take ages for you to see how certain decisions turn out, or to see if a risk works. It can be boring and stressful at the same time. And then RTS games you can adapt your decisions when you see how they respond, and so things feel a lot more fluid and like you have more options. So it is a good mix of action and then being able to take the time to think or micro when you need to.

(Curious tangential question, do you prefer to play cRPGs in real-time-pauseable, or turn based modes? I tend to do turn based but might give RTP a try again after this conversation, and just treat it as an entirely different genre. Although... my wrists might not appreciate it. And this turn based is a lot more immediate, like turn based tactical and turn based strategy are completely different genres. )

Yeah, like Company of Heroes felt like a very high quality game (good way to describe it!), but there were a few ways it was super stylistic. I know they made a few sequels, I wonder if they added some QoL improvements like camera zoom, and if that would help you!

Supreme Commander very famously has a zoomable camera haha, that is actually one of my first associations with that game. It had a lot of really cool features, but to me it felt like it lacked a soul. Like, it was distilled RTS in a lot of ways, like it has all the core features executed to a high level, but it doesn't have enough character of it's own for me. And I can very much see it feeling that way, like it assumed you were already an RTS player too. That is a game I would never suggest unless you were already an RTS player lol.

So honestly, this sounds a lot like how I played Factorio haha. There is a setting where the aliens don't attack you unless you get too close, so you don't have to worry about random attacks but still have to prepare to fight if you want to go grab more resources. I really enjoyed being able to choose when I wanted to engage in combat, and when I wanted to focus on building, so I'm sold on the general playstyle! I feel like it could also lend itself pretty well to a sort of fantasy style game, with a good base-building system. It would be fun to play different takes.

I unfortunately totally know what you are talking about. I think unfortunately with Stellaris most of the unpaused time is spent just waiting for stuff to happen, and then you pause for all of your decisions. So it is a weird mix of tension when nothing is happening, and then having forever to stress over different decisions.

I *think* Sins of a Solar Empire was much more like an RTS than Stellaris, so you might like it much more. Apparently I own it on disc, not steam, and I don't feel like dealing with that right now, so I can't tell you for sure. Will let you know how it feels if I do pull it out though.

@Shivaekul to be honest I think a lot of it, too, is that I feel totally out of my element with strategy games of any kind, and I don’t like the tension and uncertainty of waiting to see if the game is going to harshly punish me for every little thing that I do. it feels like I never know for sure if I’m doing well or not. I think way too much of my self-worth gets wrapped up in whether or not I can do well in games in general, so it’s hard for me to branch out to games that I have zero experience or skill in lol. often I don’t even wait to see if I can win a game or if a risk is going to pay off - just waiting to find out is so painful for me that I stop playing in frustration :/

also that’s an interesting question! tbh I think CRPGs just aren’t my genre at all. the more I learn about their design philosophy (especially the purpose of things like skill checks, and other mechanical stuff that distinguishes the player from their character) the more I disagree with it, even though I like what it’s trying to do in theory (create an immersive world where you’re given meaningful choices and interesting characters/situations to respond to). I did really like parts of Fallout 1, and I think the overall story in Knights of the Old Republic 1 was great too, but I don’t think I’ve ever liked combat in a CRPG unfortunately. it’s never really clicked for me

have you tried real-time CRPGs in the past? it sounds like maybe you prefer turn-based CRPGs and I’m curious why, if you don’t mind sharing

if there’s a Company of Heroes game with adjustable zoom levels, I would love to try it! I feel weird getting hung up on something small like camera zoom, but I just feel so lost without it. RTSes make me feel like an 80-year-old grandma learning how to use a computer for the first time lol - they are just completely outside of my intuition for how anything works in a video game, and I get so disoriented just trying to understand the physical space that the game is taking place in

to be honest, my experience with Supreme Commander made me wonder how many FPS games assume that the player is already an experienced FPS player, and don’t even bother with a proper tutorial at all. I feel like it’s probably a lot of them, and that’s honestly not great. I would love for FPSes to be accessible to everyone, even if they pick up a more recent/popular game

I’ve had mixed, mostly bad experiences with Factorio (the mode where aliens periodically attack was terrible for me T_T) but I definitely want to do something kinda similar! what I really want to play with, with the Factorio-like mechanics, is asking the player to adapt to sudden changes in the supply chain (like what if one of your power generators is knocked out? now you have to figure out what gets powered down and what stays online) but obviously it wouldn’t have anything nearly as complex as even the early game of Factorio

I think I’ve heard the name Sins of a Solar Empire before! I don’t know anything about it at all though lol - but I might take a look at it and see if it seems fun

@kasdeya Yeah, my mindset going in is generally that my first game, at the very least, is just for figuring out the mechanics lol. I generally restart after a few ours to try again, as I realize what worked, what didn't, and what I should have done earlier. It can be really hard since it can take a while to figure out if a given choice was good or not, so it has helped to approach it from the point of view of exploration, rather than wanting to win (at first anyways).

And yeah, I can understand that feeling too. It is hard because games are a place that you can feel powerful and have options you might not in real life, and be able to explore in a safer way, but when you struggle a lot you don't feel powerful at all. I used to feel pretty confident in my game playing skills, but now I'm not nearly as good at games as I used to be and it has been an ego hit lol. But everything takes practice, and most games and genres are unique, and take time to learn and practice, so it is good to give yourself some grace too :)

That is fair, CRPGs are a distilled essences of some of the things that annoy you about TTRPGs lol. But I don't mind skill checks as much, I view it just as a way to find out if I (or the character) succeeded at the action I was attempting. It can be frustrating if you don't succeed, but I don't personally feel like it really distinguishes the player from the character, like it is making some of the system stuff visible, but I don't feel like it really detracts for myself personally. But yeah, and often I feel like the story limits me much more than I would like, so that doesn't always help too. They try, but sometimes there just isn't an option that does what you want it to, or options don't feel like they matter, and that does suck. Or I'm never a fan of grimdark lol, but a lot of them are more "gritty" than I would prefer.

I played Neverwinter Nights back in the day and had a lot of fun, and that one was not turn based. I've enjoyed Turn-Based mode in that it matches more with TTRPG rules, and I've been wanting to lay one of those. Also I'm slow these days lol, I like having time to make my decisions and think about things, just a lot less tension lol. I feel like they are not actiony *enough* in real-time mode, like a lot of stuff is still turn/time based under the hood. I kinda like the more ARPG style of some games, so I'm definitely looking forward to checking out that game you were talking about once it gets out of early access and is optimized more.

Yeah, I've definitely seen people struggle through the beginning stages of an FPS due to it not really giving them enough guidance. I think the genre is more straightforward though, which helps a lot. The main problem imo is the controls, people really struggle aiming and moving when they haven't played those styles of game before. No real way to fix that, though it does help a lot to have variable difficulty levels so that people have more time to respond and aim without dying.

Yeah, I would definitely turn off the random attacks! It is much better when they are on passive, where if you get within a certain range of the they will attack, but it is like a reasonable range, like a screen or two away, just can't be right next door. Lol, the new planets on factorio each have unique mechanics, and it has been cool but also a pain adapting to each of them. I don't know if I would enjoy it as much in like a factorio game style, but something like that would be very cool for like a starship commander game, or something like that. Where situations happen and you have to prioritize and figure out how to survive (or even thrive) while things get back online. I guess its the mechanical difference of in factorio, you create everything, so I would just want to fix the power situation. But in games where you kinda have to delegate and wait, then you can think more about how to mitigate the problem, rather than just fixing it outright.

Probably also partially because it is an awesome name haha. Apparently the first one has pretty decent mod support too, for like different universes and stuff. Think I will give it a try again if it goes on sale on steam. If you give it a try, let me know what you think :)

@Shivaekul hm that seems like a really good mindset for starting a new strategy game! I don’t know if it ever would’ve occurred to me to try playing that way lol. I think one thing I’m learning about myself is that I get really insecure, any time I can imagine a Gamer™ putting me down for how I’m playing. a lot of my favorite games sidestep that, but any time I’m no longer able to sidestep it, I stop having fun and just feel increasingly frustrated and hurt

like I was really enjoying playing a minimally modded Minecraft config that I set up, with hardcore darkness and torches that burn out after 1 hour. but then I found a mob spawner and decided to do redstone and engineering type things to set up a farm. and that suddenly made me feel terrible, to the point that I don’t think it would be good for my mental health to keep playing. since I’m actually really really bad at redstone, and every time I made a mistake I just imagined a really smug gamer bro criticizing me for it

I think that’s also why I prefer indie games, very easy games, and older games that people generally don’t play anymore. because it’s really hard to imagine someone smugly telling me how trash I am at those games lol, so I can’t really get in my own head about them and I can just have fun instead. but it definitely really limits my options

and yeah - I honestly feel so limited by roleplaying games that are dialog-heavy. especially if the dialog has important consequences. and I don’t think it’s the games’ fault most of the time - like there is just no way that they can anticipate every possible thing that I would want to say. but I feel like my preferred kind of roleplaying game has as little important stuff happen via dialog as possible, and relies on emergent systems instead - like the faction reputation system in New Vegas. and also just giving the player lots of sandboxy open-ended mechanics to express themselves with - which is something that I love in modded Skyrim

ugh I know what you mean about real-time CRPGs not being actiony enough. KOTOR 1 and 2 combat is such a slog because each round actually takes 6 real-life seconds, so it’s this horrible loop of {pause… throw numbers at each other… pause… throw numbers at each other… pause}. there’s no fast-forward and there’s really not much you can actively do - you just kinda have to wait for it to be over

yeah - FPS controls seem like they’re really difficult for people to adapt to at first. I honestly think that other genres are probably an easier gateway into FPSes than FPSes themselves a lot of the time. like Portal 1 for example would probably be a great introduction to looking around a 3D environment and navigating it with the mouse and WASD. one thing that I find myself wishing a lot is that there was some easy way for new players to see “what are some good entry-point games for [game genre]?” there are a lot of people asking that question online, but the answers are generally just people recommending their favorite games in that genre without really thinking about how beginner-friendly they are at all. and I think that’s just because it’s really easy to become blind to the aspects of a genre that you’re familiar with that are difficult for new players. I feel like I probably have a lot of blind spots like that when it comes to FPSes - especially since I tend to like the more mechanically complex ones like Hideous Destructor and SWAT 4

omg they actually added whole new planets to Factorio? that’s crazy. to be honest I’ve never even gotten to the midgame of Factorio so I have no idea how you would even travel to another planet in that game. I think it’s cool that each planet has a different mechanic that you need to adapt to though - like in concept that sounds pretty cool. what are the mechanics?

@kasdeya Haha, I think it mostly started because it was either that or playing the tutorials, and tutorials feel like afterthoughts in most strategy games (very much contributing to the difficulty to get into the genre), so this seemed like more fun. But that really sucks. I really hate that those people exist. I wanted to hang out and do some games on stream at one point, and the random drive-by criticism really sucked. But really no one likes those guys. They suck in multiple different ways, and they criticize others in a vain attempt to feel better about themselves. I feel bad for them because they are miserable too, but not to the extent where you have to care about a word they say.

{Unsolicited advice again: I think we should kill off the Gamer™ bro in your head though. I'm not sure exactly what he is saying to you, but he is full of shit. No one is good at games inherently, and everyone has a first time learning everything. And like, the fun should be experimenting and learning, you should not be expected to be good at something from the start, that is what learning and practice and experience are for. And games are not a competitive experience. Fuck "Optimal". And fuck the Gamer™ bro in your head too. I hope next time he shows up you can send him packing.

If it helps, I haven't played minecraft or with redstone, but I do have 200+ hours on factorio, and I still wouldn't say I was anywhere near an expert with circuits, despite probably at least 10 of those hours being trying to set stuff up with circuits. And I consider myself to be extremely smart lol. Same with factory designs, I constantly sit there, build, sit there rebuild, its so complicated and I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing. But that is the gameplay. Or you go look up what "the best" way to do something is, but then that is a different game, that isn't designing your own stuff. So you are not bad at redstone. You are just new to it. Give yourself that grace to be new to it and have fun figuring out what you can do with it :) Gamer bro isn't even a real gamer!}

Yeah, like I like the concept of dialog options a lot, but like you said, they are limited by nature, so implementations each struggle at times. I appreciate when games do it well though, but I do love the idea of emergent systems as well. The more options you have, the cooler it is, so I really appreciate games that make an effort to give you that sandbox to play in.

Yeah, that is exactly it! Like I think it speeds up a little in most of the ones I have tried it for, but it still *feels* the same.

I think you are right about portal, since you (mostly, but especially at first) have time to think and line up your shots. And that is a really good idea. You are totally right that that is how it tends to go, and it is hard to think of things in terms of how accessible it is for a newcomer, but that it would be really helpful for there to be lists of games like that, so people could sort of work their way into genres. I really like that idea!

Yeah, so now you have to build a spaceplatform and travel between planets and each planet has different mechanics. Like one planet you store power from lightning storms but solar doesn't work. Another you have to burn stuff. And then each planet you basically have to build a whole new supply chain, it is crazy. Like one one you pipe up lava and turn it into copper/iron and basic products, so you can easily mass produce basic materials and mass produce. And then there is another resource that you have to deal with territorial giant worms, and clear a space if you want to set up mines. And then one planet you have to grow plants, and then process the fruits, and then eventually turn it into bacteria that decays into copper or iron, or a few other products. That one isn't my favourite haha, but I think we just kinda got it figured out! And then the planet that is my favourite and that I'm looking forward to going back to and upgrading the stuff I hacked together, you recycle scrap and it turns into intermediate products and you have to sort and reprocess it. Just all super different, lots of fun but you don't want to know how many hours we have put in figuring stuff out, and that is with two of us working lol. And shit, most of our planets are kinda frozen due to jams, either from when I added quality modules everywhere, or because it was hacked together, it is pretty bad. (So really don't beat yourself up over the times you have played!) But it is also fun, like I'm looking forward to fixing some of the things that are causing the jams in the first place, and I'm starting to put some of the pieces together between different planets now that we have the first batch set, there is also a quality system where you can basically have an x% chance at higher quality version with better stats, and then with the recycler building from one of the planets you can break things back down, so it allows you to recycle all the ones that don't win the upgrade roll, and try again (with some resources lost). So I'm looking forward to setting up some high quality stuff, and also getting the science going to unlock epic gears. And then of course building epic stuff. And I also have to reconfigure all our trains. But like, this is honestly gonna take me many hours. I find it fun somehow lol, but it isn't easy!