What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?

Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.

The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.

They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.

We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.

Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.

The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.

#Linux

@Linux_in_a_Bit my favorite in the irc days was when people said to rtfm and someone would paste the manual page back and it would say "TODO."

@Linux_in_a_Bit
Make Linux Kindness a Thing

@Linux_in_a_Bit While I agree with all that, it is then again equally annoying when those "noobs" either want to go directly into customizing/theming/"ricing" (hate that word) within the first 24 hours they are using their distro and are frustrated when this involves more than "double-clicking" an *.exe. on the other hand a lot of people REALLY try hard to find ways to make everything as close as possible to win7/10/11 as possible which will also fail in the long run

@Linux_in_a_Bit not true anymore.
With AI integrated in most search engine, you often get the right response from it.
One of the few benefits of AI is that it can basically customise the documentation to make it sensible to you. It becomes a kind of live documentation.

A simple how to fix … on [distro name] works 95% of the time in my experience.

@Linux_in_a_Bit ubuntu understood that in 2004 and that's why they are the default thing to this day

@Linux_in_a_Bit

What’s the most common complaint I’ve heard about Linux?
idk maybe try googling it first??? Didn’t read the rest of the post smh

/j

@Linux_in_a_Bit It might sound simple and I am aware people often volunteer but not getting a reply after hours of waiting is even for me as a nerd very frustrating. At least after a while have someone say "sorry it seems we can't help you either. Maybe you can leave a ticket on our tracker/mailinglist" or something along those lines. That often would have made me feel better than the feeling of being ignored or worse feeling I asked something so stupid nobody wants to talk to me.

@Linux_in_a_Bit Linux has been plagued, from day one, by an elitist and ableist culture. If you don't understand, you're stupid and you don't deserve to be using it.

Want another feature? Make your own fork. The manual is too hard to understand? Write your own version. Making Linux user friendly is not our job and we don't care.

Mhhm, yeah. Perhaps giving positions of privilege to assholes just because they code well may have not been the best approach.

@Linux_in_a_Bit Another common thing I've encountered is feeling like people aren't really listening to you or aren't willing to take the time to understand the situation before they start throwing stuff at you.

This is sometimes how people recommend Linux itself, as a solution to a problem in a situation where switching to Linux would either be unfeasible or where that'd cause a lot more headache than simply finding a workaround for now and look into switching to linux at a later date when you're not actively trying to solve a problem.

A lot of these issues, I feel like, come from an inability a lot of people have to admit they don't know something. That's why they feel the need to make it out like you're the one wrong for asking the question, or try and steer them towards something you do have an expertise in even if that thing isn't actually helpful in the situation.

No reasonable person is gonna think less if you just admit you don't know. "I don't know, but I'll try looking into it" is a lot better than bullshitting some answer or deflecting the question. And when it comes to computers in particular, I'm pretty convinced there are only two kinds of people: people who don't know what they are doing at least half the time and people who are lying.

@Linux_in_a_Bit related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers

@Slacker why is that annoying?

@malte @Slacker because you don't buy a car to tweak the engine until you know how the car works first. Then you learn about the engine. Then you tweak it.

Many 'noobs' are mad there isn't a bolt-on upgrade to rice it. i.e. a double-click method and that it takes some learning.

At least, this is the experience I've had, and so I just don't bother helping anymore.

@Slacker @Kancept who is "you"?

@malte @Slacker @Kancept On the one hand:

You deserve to be appreciated when offering help to a 'noob', & their frustration does not make it okay for them to be rude. You don't need to put up with abuse.

On the other hand:

"I won't help you b/c you were too frustrated by your problem to adhere to my expectations, & I did not have the patience to tolerate incivility which I knew was not directed at me" doesn't seem like a viable solution.

Thoughts?

@malte
Generic "you", aka "one"
@Kancept

@malte @Slacker @Kancept

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you

@Linux_in_a_Bit
A lot of subject matter experts think it is beneath them to explain something simple to a new user, and maybe even get off on making fun of them. I speak from experience, as someone who was that asshole in my younger days. A key difference between a junior vs a senior dev is not so much skill or knowledge, as mentoring other devs, helping them learn.
Saying "RTFM" is often unhelpful, whereas an actual link to TFM and maybe a section or page number might be helpful.

@Linux_in_a_Bit
Certainly teaching new users how to find the answers is worthwhile, but that isn't just saying RTFM. One can give an answer or pointer, AND help them learn how to find things on their own.
Being rude to new users doesn't impress anyone, other than other assholes who like to be rude to new users.

@Linux_in_a_Bit
Sometimes a new user has a question for which it is obvious that there is no simple answer that they're likely to understand. It is possible to politely explain why, and still provide pointers to resources that might, if sufficiently studied, actually answer their question.
Sometimes a new user wants to know how to do something that simply is not possible in any practical way. Again, it's possible to politely explain that.

@Linux_in_a_Bit
None of us were born experts on Linux, or on any aspect of computing. We all had to learn it, though our individual paths varied. Perhaps some of us have forgotten how frustrating that was at times.
Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one.

@brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit
"Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one."

True. I was raised in the Old Culture, in which it was a Mortal Sin to ask a question if the answer could conceivably be found in any existing documentation. Greybeards, some of whom had written that documentation, used this belief to dismiss newcomers. Some, like Ulrich Drepper and Linus Torvalds, used it to abuse others as supplemental pay. RTFM will be tough to get past.

@drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit
Saying RTFM is perhaps reasonable when coherent, well organized documentation exists. That was true of some commercial operating systems, and even arguably BSD. When I first started using BSD, in 1984, I had a printed set of manuals that was fairly good. Documentation for Windows, MacOS, and Linux is far less complete, coherent, or organized, so a new user, told RTFM, can not really be expected to find useful information.
(Also, enshittification of search results.)

@drdirtbag @brouhaha @Linux_in_a_Bit 100%😮‍💨

I feel like there should be a series of infographics on "How to actually help & encourage new Linux users" that includes "phrases & responses to avoid at all times".

Lots of well-meaning but poorly-equipped (& rarely trained) tech support, out there.😬🧑‍💻

@Kancept @GoodNewsGreyShoes idk. to me it sounds like @Slacker is annoyed by people who get excited, which is a bit of a dick move. let people be excited, and work on your own ability to let people be excited 🤷‍♀️

@malte @Kancept @Slacker I fully agree:

"New users shouldn't assume they can easily optimize this operating system that's lauded for its optimizability & being more user-friendly than it's ever been" is unrealistic.

New users aren't going to stop wanting the nice things that Veteran users keep bragging about as reasons they prefer Linux.

@GoodNewsGreyShoes @malte @Slacker @Kancept I totally agree with this. an important aspect of emotional maturity is being able to see someone getting frustrated at something that you like, and not taking that as frustration at you, but rather meeting them where they are and saying “I totally understand why you’re frustrated. would you like some help? this was hard for me too at first but I can share what I know”

I get frustrated at any tech that I don’t immediately understand because it makes me feel incredibly stupid to see others using it (seemingly) so effortlessly. and I try to show others the same understanding and respect that I would like to be shown when I feel that way

@CedC @Linux_in_a_Bit I might get hate from my Fedi ingroup for this but I find this to be an extremely good use of AI. I use Perplexity (a really nice AI search engine tool) for quickly learning technical stuff that would take me a ton of work reading scattered, sparse documentation otherwise

the trick is to only ask it for information that you can immediately test/verify

(with this said, I don’t financially support AI companies ever because I’m very worried about the risks posed by AI)

@kasdeya

>> “I totally understand why you’re frustrated. Would you like some help? This was hard for me too, at first, but I can share what I know.”

This is a *phenomenal* way to respond to an upset/impolite request.👌💯🏆

- validates their concern & experience, *twice*
- indicates interest in & value of their goals
- sets reasonable expectations for support
- mutually disarming invitation

@GoodNewsGreyShoes @brouhaha @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit and you know, I think a lot of us aren’t even used to there BEING an available manual. I’m used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software (“plug in” or “reboot”) compared with ones for earlier devices (“here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts”)… let’s just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.

@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good.

@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
At some point, Microsoft must have decided that writing manuals was just an unnecessary expense, and that the help file, and the availability of third-party "Excel for Maroons" guides, was sufficient.
The entire software industry followed suit, even in cases where no third-party book exists. Next the software developers assumed that users can get answers from other users via a search engine, and that's going just great.
#enshittification

@brouhaha I am surprised to hear both of those things, & would love to see a photo of you still have one! 👀✨

(note: I desire a photo not for proof, as I've no doubt you're telling the truth, but simply because I'd love to see about how big/detailed of a manual they were. Like, book sized? Leaflet? Notepad? 🤔)

@aud ☝️THHIIIIISSSSSS THIS YES THIS!💯

Ask any IT about their first steps when troubleshooting (generally, not for some specific issue) & I'd be astonished if any of their first 5 suggestions mention a manual.😐

ok but this is just not true

go to any irl space or a normal online platform and everyone there will be nothing but helpful and patient

the meme that the linux community is somehow toxic needs to die, it's exactly as toxic as any other community or fandom: it really depends entirely on the space you're in

if you go to a hellish place for neckbearded assholes like reddit or some elitist forum and then complain that the linux users on said platform are indeed also neckbearded assholes then i actually don't know how to help you

@lizzy I'll be the first one to admit that there is plenty of toxicity in the Linux community but I do take issue with one thing in that post:

'People respond "Did you Google it?"'

God forbid you try to guide people towards looking for answers on their own I guess.

Like, the whole point is that it's your computer and you're given the liberty of learning things, etc. And to do that, yeah, you kinda need to look stuff up sometimes.

@IvanDSM @lizzy most of the time i'm helping people, i end up pointing them to some manual page, and then responding follow up questions they have

if someone just drops a "rtfm", that's awful, but the experience i see more often is people saying "rtfm, here's the exact page you should read, ask me if you have questions"... is that, too much to ask?

@navi @IvanDSM i think pointing people to the manual page that answers their question is also a "teach a man how to fish" situation.